Archaeology

Hi all,

First time posting to a newsgroup of any kind, but I was wondering what
people thought on the a) shape of native coppers along the Pacific NW Coast,
and b) their size.

I haven't really been able to find more than a few lines here and there when
it comes to the origins of native coppers, let alone their distinctive
shape. Likewise, I haven't been able to find much on their sizes. For
example, some say the size was in relation to the availablity of rolled
sheet copper after European contact (i.e. they got bigger) than they were
prior to contact.

Is this in fact the case?

How about the shape? Anyone care to hazard a guess as to why the distinctive
shape would be used over something else?


Neil

Neil Gauthreau wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> First time posting to a newsgroup of any kind, but I was wondering what
> people thought on the a) shape of native coppers along the Pacific NW Coast,
> and b) their size.

What's the difference in relation to the coppers on the East coast,
and their size.... perhaps it is an illusion, they they only drive
bigger cars, and had out bigger fines?



[..]

--
SIR - Philosopher unauthorised
-----------------------------------------------------------------
The one who is educated from the wrong books is not educated, he is
misled.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

"Neil Gauthreau" <> wrote in message news:<d9CAb.18055$d35.12551@edtnps84>...
> Hi all,
>
> First time posting to a newsgroup of any kind, but I was wondering what
> people thought on the a) shape of native coppers along the Pacific NW Coast,
> and b) their size.
>
> I haven't really been able to find more than a few lines here and there when
> it comes to the origins of native coppers, let alone their distinctive
> shape. Likewise, I haven't been able to find much on their sizes. For
> example, some say the size was in relation to the availablity of rolled
> sheet copper after European contact (i.e. they got bigger) than they were
> prior to contact.

Until they learnt to smelt copper from any one of the ores all the
copper they had was found by 'placer' mining..

> Is this in fact the case?
>
> How about the shape? Anyone care to hazard a guess as to why the distinctive
> shape would be used over something else?
1) Since you are evidently on the Net I'd suggest you go into Google
and do a search for 'native copper' 'copper'
2)If you have a library anywhere near you I'd suggest reading anything
on copper mining in the areas you mentioned.
Or (3) go to your local Rockhunters Club.

Neil Gauthreau wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> First time posting to a newsgroup of any kind, but I was wondering what
> people thought on the a) shape of native coppers along the Pacific NW Coast,
> and b) their size.
>
> I haven't really been able to find more than a few lines here and there when
> it comes to the origins of native coppers, let alone their distinctive
> shape. Likewise, I haven't been able to find much on their sizes. For
> example, some say the size was in relation to the availablity of rolled
> sheet copper after European contact (i.e. they got bigger) than they were
> prior to contact.
>
> Is this in fact the case?
>
> How about the shape? Anyone care to hazard a guess as to why the distinctive
> shape would be used over something else?
>
> Neil

I always thought of them as looking like a shield. Weren't elk hides
used for that purpose on the NW coast? Any possible resemblance?

Anyhow, here's a picture of a rather small one held by a totem figure.
(This is the totem pole that Yuri thinks must be a Hawaiian carving
because it's in a Botanical Garden in Honolulu.)



Ross Clark

(George) writes:
> "Neil Gauthreau" <> wrote in message news:<d9CAb.18055$d35.12551@edtnps84>...
> > Hi all,
> >
> > First time posting to a newsgroup of any kind, but I was wondering what
> > people thought on the a) shape of native coppers along the Pacific NW Coast,
> > and b) their size.
> >
> > I haven't really been able to find more than a few lines here and there when
> > it comes to the origins of native coppers, let alone their distinctive
> > shape. Likewise, I haven't been able to find much on their sizes. For
> > example, some say the size was in relation to the availablity of rolled
> > sheet copper after European contact (i.e. they got bigger) than they were
> > prior to contact.
>
> Until they learnt to smelt copper from any one of the ores all the
> copper they had was found by 'placer' mining..

The PNW Indians enjoyed a wide spread maritime trade and potlatch
culture. Early European explorers commonly hired native navigators to
show them where to go. There is a well attested record of metals trade
across the Bering Strait prior to European contact. You can't hostinghostinghostingume
copper was native without testing its isotope and trace mineral ratios.

--

On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 21:43:19 GMT, Larry Caldwell wrote:

> The PNW Indians enjoyed a wide spread maritime trade and potlatch
> culture. Early European explorers commonly hired native navigators to
> show them where to go. There is a well attested record of metals trade
> across the Bering Strait prior to European contact.

Although this wouldn't surprise me, what is the evidence?

Doug

> The PNW Indians enjoyed a wide spread maritime trade and potlatch
> culture. Early European explorers commonly hired native navigators to
> show them where to go. There is a well attested record of metals trade
> across the Bering Strait prior to European contact. You can't hostinghostinghostingume
> copper was native without testing its isotope and trace mineral ratios.
>
> --
>

That brings up another point. In talking to fellow doing research with his
wife at a museum that I had worked at this summer, I had been told that of
all the large coppers tested (I haven't a clue as to how many), the
composition pointed to European origin, rather than raw pounded copper like
that of the smaller ones.

The smaller ones, he claimed had originated somewhere in the area Copper
River in Alaska. I should restate that, he claimed that the chemical
composition pointed to an Alaskan origin. I fully realize that the origin of
the raw material does not necessarily point to the ideological principles or
values behind the object itself as cultures frequently take materials or
objects and give them their own meanings and uses.

On Sun, 7 Dec 2003 22:48:49 +0000, Doug Weller
<> did some sarious thank'n
and scribbled:

>On Sun, 07 Dec 2003 21:43:19 GMT, Larry Caldwell wrote:
>
>> The PNW Indians enjoyed a wide spread maritime trade and potlatch
>> culture. Early European explorers commonly hired native navigators to
>> show them where to go. There is a well attested record of metals trade
>> across the Bering Strait prior to European contact.
>
>Although this wouldn't surprise me, what is the evidence?

There was a dohostinghostinghostingentery on PBS that have some historical
reference for the inuits love if iron slag and shostinghostinghostinghosting, and
the inference was made that this was the result of pre-WEA
trade with siberians, probably Russians.

I think that pottery craft is probably prerequisite to
smelting. The pottery craft that appears to have diffused
from south america according to what i have read had a
northern limit in the west in central california. This
pottery appears relatively recently relative to the eastern
U.S. and central mexico. Whereas the pottery craft that
appears in various and sundry tribes in western canada and
alaska is markedly different and can be tied to pottery
cultures in siberia much more recently. I don't think the
culture along the pacific northwest had evolved to the point
of being metal smelters as technology seems to significantly
lag the regions in mesoamerica and south america. This
pottery is also found north of the great lakes and there
appears to be a division between pottery styles in the
eastern part of north america. Again, I have very light
reading on this so I may be pressing my luck on this.
The genetica hostinghostinghostingociation of the Haida and other NW native
groups shows a strong similarity to asian in terms of
recency of divergence, somewhat remarkable is the fact that
pottery appears in Japan 13 kya and in the Amur river
shortly there after, but the culture seems to have lagged in
its intoduction in the new world. I think a review of
metalurgy in ancient Japan, Korea and eastern siberia,
particularly around the Amur river site might give some
clue as to why pottery disappears in the northern temperate
zone and reappears in the tropical zone, likewise why
these groups appear to be metal traders and not metal
makers.

"George" <> wrote in message
news: om...
> "Neil Gauthreau" <> wrote in message
news:<d9CAb.18055$d35.12551@edtnps84>...
> > Hi all,
> >
> > First time posting to a newsgroup of any kind, but I was wondering what
> > people thought on the a) shape of native coppers along the Pacific NW
Coast,
> > and b) their size.
> >
> > I haven't really been able to find more than a few lines here and there
when
> > it comes to the origins of native coppers, let alone their distinctive
> > shape. Likewise, I haven't been able to find much on their sizes. For
> > example, some say the size was in relation to the availablity of rolled
> > sheet copper after European contact (i.e. they got bigger) than they
were
> > prior to contact.
>
> Until they learnt to smelt copper from any one of the ores all the
> copper they had was found by 'placer' mining..

Within British Columbia where the First Nations traded "coppers" there are
no alluvial (placer) copper deposits. The few that are found in the world
are for the most part in dry areas. Alluvial copper is almost unknown
anywhere because copper corrodes so quickly in running water. Note the
distinction from "native copper" which is metallic copper found in rock and
alluvial copper which originates as native copper but concentrates wit
hwater as gold does. That too, while more common worldwide, is almost
unknown in British Columbia and occurs only in a few copper mines as small
flakes of metal. There have been pieces of native copper found in Alaska and
that is the likely source of trade copper on the wet coast.

According to the Museum of Archaeology in Vancouver all of the coppers known
were originally spare copper sheets for repairing the bottoms of european
ships that were copper clad to protect themselves from the worms of the
Atlantic. Whatever small trade in copper metal occured before contact, it
exploded with the arrival of Europeans. Native peoples in British Columbia
and Alaska never smelted anything and there is no evidence of their melting
copper metal to make sheets.

Z

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 07:43:08 GMT, "zolota" <>
wrote:

>
>"George" <> wrote in message
>news: com...
>> "Neil Gauthreau" <> wrote in message
>news:<d9CAb.18055$d35.12551@edtnps84>...
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > First time posting to a newsgroup of any kind, but I was wondering what
>> > people thought on the a) shape of native coppers along the Pacific NW
>Coast,
>> > and b) their size.
>> >
>> > I haven't really been able to find more than a few lines here and there
>when
>> > it comes to the origins of native coppers, let alone their distinctive
>> > shape. Likewise, I haven't been able to find much on their sizes. For
>> > example, some say the size was in relation to the availablity of rolled
>> > sheet copper after European contact (i.e. they got bigger) than they
>were
>> > prior to contact.
>>
>> Until they learnt to smelt copper from any one of the ores all the
>> copper they had was found by 'placer' mining..
>
>Within British Columbia where the First Nations traded "coppers" there are
>no alluvial (placer) copper deposits. The few that are found in the world
>are for the most part in dry areas. Alluvial copper is almost unknown
>anywhere because copper corrodes so quickly in running water. Note the
>distinction from "native copper" which is metallic copper found in rock and
>alluvial copper which originates as native copper but concentrates wit
>hwater as gold does. That too, while more common worldwide, is almost
>unknown in British Columbia and occurs only in a few copper mines as small
>flakes of metal. There have been pieces of native copper found in Alaska and
>that is the likely source of trade copper on the wet coast.
>
>According to the Museum of Archaeology in Vancouver all of the coppers known
>were originally spare copper sheets for repairing the bottoms of european
>ships that were copper clad to protect themselves from the worms of the
>Atlantic. Whatever small trade in copper metal occured before contact, it
>exploded with the arrival of Europeans. Native peoples in British Columbia
>and Alaska never smelted anything and there is no evidence of their melting
>copper metal to make sheets.
>
See

The ancient smelting of copper is well authenticated. I think I can
find more details if you get picky :-)



Eric Stevens