Various Topics on Archaeology

.... ..ll..

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20040101_705.html

"Russian scientists uncovered a 30,000-year-old site where ancient hunters
lived on the Yana River in Siberia, some 300 miles north of the Arctic
Circle and not far from the Bering land bridge that then connected Asia
with North America."

Doug

..b ..et..

Yea doggies! Perhaps we now we have something to sink our teeth into!

IIRC, 30kya mght just correspond pretty closely with the point at which
Beringia might have opened up a bit (right before the heaviest glaciation)
only to close up (actually flood out) again after 15ky or so of perhaps
intemittent land bridges. At least they have broken the "barrier" so that
it will not be all that difficult to convince people to look back a bit
earlier
in time for Siberian/Alaskan finds! 8-)

Regards
bk

"Doug Weller" <dweller@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote in message
news:nwgpcyiyy29$.12rto48nh8cm1.dlg@40tude.net...
> http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20040101_705.html
>
> "Russian scientists uncovered a 30,000-year-old site where ancient hunters
> lived on the Yana River in Siberia, some 300 miles north of the Arctic
> Circle and not far from the Bering land bridge that then connected Asia
> with North America."
>
> Doug

..r.. ..u..

"Bob Keeter" <rkeeter@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<bF0Jb.19355$IM3.17820@newsread3.news.atl.ear thlink.net>...
> Yea doggies! Perhaps we now we have something to sink our teeth into!
>
> IIRC, 30kya mght just correspond pretty closely with the point at which
> Beringia might have opened up a bit (right before the heaviest glaciation)
> only to close up (actually flood out) again after 15ky or so of perhaps
> intemittent land bridges. At least they have broken the "barrier" so that
> it will not be all that difficult to convince people to look back a bit
> earlier
> in time for Siberian/Alaskan finds! 8-)

bk:
A useful curve:

http://instaar.colorado.edu/deltafor...ce_volumes.jpg

Daryl Krupa

..b ..et..

Very interesting! If I make a ****eyed ***umption that the ice
volume is roughly inversely proportional to sea level, and I start
at the intersection of the 30kya line and move to the right, I end
up at about 13kya. If ice volumes above that line represented an
"open" land bridge, the closure date would be just about right, IIRC.

Not sure that there would not be some lag in the response of the sea
level as the ice melted (it might take a while for the run-off to make it
downstream to the ocean (but Id expect even for the water soaked
up into "ground water" that might be measured in years or tens of
years not thousands of years, but just swagging around with that one!)

Thanks much (again) for the info

Regards
bk
"Daryl Krupa" <icycalmca@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c70365ef.0401011849.4d920908@posting.google.c om...
> "Bob Keeter" <rkeeter@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<bF0Jb.19355$IM3.17820@newsread3.news.atl.ear thlink.net>...
> > Yea doggies! Perhaps we now we have something to sink our teeth into!
> >
> > IIRC, 30kya mght just correspond pretty closely with the point at which
> > Beringia might have opened up a bit (right before the heaviest
glaciation)
> > only to close up (actually flood out) again after 15ky or so of perhaps
> > intemittent land bridges. At least they have broken the "barrier" so
that
> > it will not be all that difficult to convince people to look back a bit
> > earlier
> > in time for Siberian/Alaskan finds! 8-)
>
> bk:
> A useful curve:
>
>
http://instaar.colorado.edu/deltafor...ce_volumes.jpg
>
> Daryl Krupa

..B5..

Doug Weller <dweller@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote in message news:<nwgpcyiyy29$.12rto48nh8cm1.dlg@40tude.net>.. .
> http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20040101_705.html
>
> "Russian scientists uncovered a 30,000-year-old site where ancient hunters
> lived on the Yana River in Siberia, some 300 miles north of the Arctic
> Circle and not far from the Bering land bridge that then connected Asia
> with North America."

One: ABC News has been on my *plonk* list ever since the article claiming
Indians were inbred neanderthals.
Two: That almost triples current ages for habitation of Siberia. I'd like
to examine the site myself.
Three: It's still not old enough, according to Cinq-Mars.

..r.. ..u..

"Bob Keeter" <rkeeter@earthlink.net> wrote in message news:<Fj5Jb.4582$6B.687@newsread1.news.atl.earthli nk.net>...
> Very interesting! If I make a ****eyed ***umption that the ice
> volume is roughly inversely proportional to sea level, and I start
> at the intersection of the 30kya line and move to the right, I end
> up at about 13kya. If ice volumes above that line represented an
> "open" land bridge, the closure date would be just about right, IIRC.
>
> Not sure that there would not be some lag in the response of the sea
> level as the ice melted (it might take a while for the run-off to make it
> downstream to the ocean (but Id expect even for the water soaked
> up into "ground water" that might be measured in years or tens of
> years not thousands of years, but just swagging around with that one!)
>
> Thanks much (again) for the info

bk:
Yer Welum, Ah'm Shoeure.
Yes, ice volume is inversely proportional to eustatic sea level,
keeping in mind that once continental shelves are fully exposed,
and sea level reaches down to the continental slope, then
sea level drops a little faster due to reduced ocean surface area,
but that's not important right now.
The curve on that graph is just an approximation, but it should be
good enough for most purposes. There don't seem to have been big
swings in eustatic sea level during the LGM, i.e. ~30 ka BP to ~ 15 ka
BP (YRMV, locally).
Mel****er does not seem to have taken very long to reach the ocean,
for the most part; even the catastrophic drainages of the mel****er
impounded inGlacial Lake Ag***iz didn't raise sea level an amount that
we can measure.
As for groundwater recharge, that would not be likely to sequester
much mel****er, partly because
land that would be amenable to receiving groundwater
(e.g., glacial lake basins) would likely have already been saturated
during the advance phase, and partly because
only so much water can be absorbed by near-surface aquifers in a short
period of time, and partly because
the ground in front of glacier is likely to be frozen, and hence
pretty-well impermeable.
More significant would be isostatic response of ocean floors to
changing weight of water column.

Keep in mind the findings of megafauna remains in gravels dating to
as young as about 25 ka, her in central Alberta.

BTW, I would think that the major significance of the news would be
the latitude compared to the date: it suggests not only that humans
could reach that latitude (not too difficult, in interglacial times),
but that they were adapted to glacial-time conditions at that
latitude, which would mean that they had motive and means for
committing a land-based invasion of the New World, and were only
waiting for an opportunity.
That really only leaves one question:
What did they do with the bodies of the witnesses
(i.e., the descendants of the earlier waves of invaders)?
And what did they think of the Early Holocene Johnny-Come-Latelies?
Were the EHJCLs not only responsible for the extinguishing of
American camels, elephants, and horses, but also for eliminating
the American humans whose ancestors had arrived 15 millennia earlier?

Beware the Beringian Einsatzgruppen, all ye pre-Clovis
Untermenschen!

Daryl Krupa

P.S.: Is there any truth to the rumours that Kennewick Man had been
tattooed with twin lightning bolts and a skull? And a swastika?

..y ..o..

MIB529 wrote:
>
> Doug Weller <dweller@ramtops.thisremove.co.uk> wrote in message news:<nwgpcyiyy29$.12rto48nh8cm1.dlg@40tude.net>.. .
> > http://abcnews.go.com/wire/US/ap20040101_705.html
> >
> > "Russian scientists uncovered a 30,000-year-old site where ancient hunters
> > lived on the Yana River in Siberia, some 300 miles north of the Arctic
> > Circle and not far from the Bering land bridge that then connected Asia
> > with North America."
>
> One: ABC News has been on my *plonk* list ever since the article claiming
> Indians were inbred neanderthals.
> Two: That almost triples current ages for habitation of Siberia. I'd like
> to examine the site myself.
> Three: It's still not old enough, according to Cinq-Mars.
FWIW: cited on this list last year was a campfire found in Western
Russia which was dated to 38,000 BP. which caused some consternation
because of how quickly the H. Sapiens had to spread from Anatolia to get
there. Otherwise, if a Neanderthal fire, it begs questions of what
shelter they had. But, in any case, if anyone did develop the technology
to survive the cold, then cir***polar diffusion would be duck soup.


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..b ..et..

"Daryl Krupa" <icycalmca@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c70365ef.0401022332.4478fefa@posting.google.c om...
> "Bob Keeter" <rkeeter@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<Fj5Jb.4582$6B.687@newsread1.news.atl.earthli nk.net>...

SNippage. . .
> Yer Welum, Ah'm Shoeure.

West Texas? Maybe Oklahoma? 8-) If so we gonna hafta gitchu
some better spellin lessens. You'all jes caint git tha rite Englis down
on paper! ;-)

Snippage. . .
> Mel****er does not seem to have taken very long to reach the ocean,
> for the most part; even the catastrophic drainages of the mel****er
> impounded inGlacial Lake Ag***iz didn't raise sea level an amount that
> we can measure.

Hmmm. . . . that was what I was thinking about, replayed thousands
of times over on smaller scales.

> As for groundwater recharge, that would not be likely to sequester
> much mel****er, partly because
> land that would be amenable to receiving groundwater
> (e.g., glacial lake basins) would likely have already been saturated
> during the advance phase, and partly because
> only so much water can be absorbed by near-surface aquifers in a short
> period of time, and partly because
> the ground in front of glacier is likely to be frozen, and hence
> pretty-well impermeable.

Now that you mention it, makes sense. Not much seepage into ground water
through permafrost.

> More significant would be isostatic response of ocean floors to
> changing weight of water column.

Hadnt thought of that at all! But then 64 lbs/cubic foot does translate
into some significant weight to be borne. Here in New England, the land is
still in the process of "returning" to what people think was its "pre
glaciation" levels and we fairly frequently get little insignficant
earthquakes and the crust adjusts.

> Keep in mind the findings of megafauna remains in gravels dating to
> as young as about 25 ka, her in central Alberta.
>
> BTW, I would think that the major significance of the news would be
> the latitude compared to the date: it suggests not only that humans
> could reach that latitude (not too difficult, in interglacial times),
> but that they were adapted to glacial-time conditions at that
> latitude, which would mean that they had motive and means for
> committing a land-based invasion of the New World, and were only
> waiting for an opportunity.

Yep. All packed and ready to go. Given that, the only encouragement needed
might have been an eastward wandering herd of mammoth, reindeer, or
whatever. Even with that, Im still not convinced that we wont find a
coastal path as well. Making the trip by islandhopping (actually more like
"pennensula hopping") along Beringia, making landfalls where the land
extends beyond the ice pack, and hunting seals, just feels way too easy.

> That really only leaves one question:
> What did they do with the bodies of the witnesses
> (i.e., the descendants of the earlier waves of invaders)?

Explain please? Are you perhaps suggesting that even if these 30kya hunters
had made the trip that there MIGHT have been earlier visitors? 8-)

> And what did they think of the Early Holocene Johnny-Come-Latelies?
> Were the EHJCLs not only responsible for the extinguishing of
> American camels, elephants, and horses, but also for eliminating
> the American humans whose ancestors had arrived 15 millennia earlier?

Well, what would you expect from the bringers of all evils, e.g. the "clovis
point"!
Im still holding out for that first major paleontological discovery
somewhere along the 50 fathom contour off of the Californian coast!

> Beware the Beringian Einsatzgruppen, all ye pre-Clovis
> Untermenschen!

Thats perhaps a bit much, but Im thinking that the "Clovis Uber Alles" crew
might be in for a bit of a cultural shock.

> P.S.: Is there any truth to the rumours that Kennewick Man had been
> tattooed with twin lightning bolts and a skull? And a swastika?

Nah, that was the IceMan wasn't it? ;-)

Regards
bk

.... ..ll..

On Sat, 03 Jan 2004 16:11:33 GMT, Bob Keeter wrote:
[SNIP]
> Yep. All packed and ready to go. Given that, the only encouragement needed
> might have been an eastward wandering herd of mammoth, reindeer, or
> whatever. Even with that, Im still not convinced that we wont find a
> coastal path as well. Making the trip by islandhopping (actually more like
> "pennensula hopping") along Beringia, making landfalls where the land
> extends beyond the ice pack, and hunting seals, just feels way too easy.

And Oppenheimer argues that people were trapped within Beringia, and only
after the ice thawed made it to North America.

Doug

..rdva.. .. ..ndersnatc.. .... .... ..I

"Daryl Krupa" <icycalmca@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:c70365ef.0401022332.4478fefa@posting.google.c om...
> "Bob Keeter" <rkeeter@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:<Fj5Jb.4582$6B.687@newsread1.news.atl.earthli nk.net>...
> > Very interesting! If I make a ****eyed ***umption that the ice
> > volume is roughly inversely proportional to sea level, and I start
> > at the intersection of the 30kya line and move to the right, I end
> > up at about 13kya. If ice volumes above that line represented an
> > "open" land bridge, the closure date would be just about right, IIRC.


> P.S.: Is there any truth to the rumours that Kennewick Man had been
> tattooed with twin lightning bolts and a skull? And a swastika?

It was a Harley-Davidson tattoo... "FatBobs Rule."