Various Topics on HDD

.... ..gn..

Previously Budd <Budd@budd.com> wrote:
> "Arno Wagner" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:4ustfuF19nrn9U2@mid.individual.net
>> Previously mike <spamme9@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > ANTant@zimage.com wrote:
>> > > Are there free programs like SpinRite that does well to do DEEP disk
>> > > checking/testings on external hard disk drives like Maxtor's USB (160
>> > > GB)? On two computers at work, I had it had it showed delay write
>> > > errors. Then, Windows lose connections and I have to repower off and on
>> > > to access the HDD again. I also tried different power and USB cables
>> > > since many people use the same HDD. Also, it is not heat beause
>> > > sometimes I get this problem after a few minutes after powering on from
>> > > room temperature (not warm either).
>> > >
>> > > Chkdsk /f /r did not report anything. I don't think it does testing
>> > > deep. Are there any tools that will do? I am trying HD Tune v2.52, but I
>> > > don't think that's enough. I need something like SpinRite, but it done
>> > > via DOS and doesn't do USB connections.
>> > >
>> > > Thank you in advance.

>> > Check out seagate seatools online. See if that does what you want.

>> It does not.

> You don't even know what 'he wants'.

Read his OP, then you too may know what he wants...

>> I checked recently

> And how exactly did you check?

>> because someone claimed these tools could do SMART over USB.

> He doesn't want to.

>> They can not.

> That's what you say. Your word against theirs.

They don't claim it does SMART over USB. I just verified
that it indeed cannot. It is really simple to check this
reliably.

Arno

..Ta.. ..mage.c..

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net> wrote:
> Previously Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> > adykes@panix.com (Al Dykes) writes:
> >> A third; only power the drive up when doing a backup ?
> >> It won't get very hot, or for lots of hours.

> > Backups involve having the drive very active for longish periods.
> > That's what makes drives get hot, from what I can tell. I have a 3.5"
> > 160gb Seagate 7200.x drive (not sure of exact model) in a generic usb2
> > enclosure with a tiny fan. It runs cool when idling or slightly
> > active even when I run it overnight. But doing a backup, it's quite
> > warm after 10 minutes or so, and the backup takes much longer than
> > that.

> For short backups, it should be ok. For any longer activity, only
> adequate cooling will work. Not that Seagates or Samsungs are quite
> as sensitive to heat, but hot HDD are never good.

Hmm, I guess I know why this HDD has problem. I *DID* use it as a
regular drive. I didn't care how slow USB2 was. It was basically for
playing back music, videos, copy VMware images, etc.

I did notice this Maxtor USB HDD has one vent on the back. The case did
get hot after a few hours.
--
[Laser pulsing] "Bah. It's as easy as crushing an ant! You know, the..." [grunting] "Wh-wh-whoa! Hey, take my wallet and leave me alone!" --Mr. Burns from The Simpsons (Fraudcast News; FABF16/FABF18 episode)
/\___/\
/ /\ /\ \ Phillip (Ant) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
| |o o| | Ant's Quality Foraged Links (AQFL): http://aqfl.net
\ _ / Please remove ANT if replying by e-mail.
( )

..Ta.. ..mage.c..

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> adykes@panix.com (Al Dykes) writes:
> > A third; only power the drive up when doing a backup ?
> > It won't get very hot, or for lots of hours.

> Backups involve having the drive very active for longish periods.

OR using the HDD for hours like listening to MP3 files, watching videos,
VMware images, etc. Basically, using it like a regular HDD.


> That's what makes drives get hot, from what I can tell. I have a 3.5"
> 160gb Seagate 7200.x drive (not sure of exact model) in a generic usb2
> enclosure with a tiny fan. It runs cool when idling or slightly
> active even when I run it overnight. But doing a backup, it's quite
> warm after 10 minutes or so, and the backup takes much longer than
> that.

Yep. Mine gets hot after a few hours of activities.
--
[Laser pulsing] "Bah. It's as easy as crushing an ant! You know, the..." [grunting] "Wh-wh-whoa! Hey, take my wallet and leave me alone!" --Mr. Burns from The Simpsons (Fraudcast News; FABF16/FABF18 episode)
/\___/\
/ /\ /\ \ Phillip (Ant) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
| |o o| | Ant's Quality Foraged Links (AQFL): http://aqfl.net
\ _ / Please remove ANT if replying by e-mail.
( )

..Ta.. ..mage.c..

In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
> ANTant@zimage.com wrote:
> > In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net>
> > wrote:
> >> Previously ANTant@zimage.com wrote:
> >>> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>> Previously ANTant@zimage.com wrote:
> >>>>> Are there free programs like SpinRite that does well to do DEEP
> >>>>> disk checking/testings on external hard disk drives like Maxtor's
> >>>>> USB (160 GB)?
> >
> >>>> SpinRite is outdated enough, that it really just does a
> >>>> conventional surface scan these days. ONly the disk itself can do
> >>>> more via SMART.
> >
> >>> Interesting.
> >
> >
> >>>>> On two computers at work, I had it had it showed delay write
> >>>>> errors. Then, Windows lose connections and I have to repower off
> >>>>> and on to access the HDD again. I also tried different power and
> >>>>> USB cables since many people use the same HDD. Also, it is not
> >>>>> heat beause sometimes I get this problem after a few minutes
> >>>>> after powering on from room temperature (not warm either).
> >
> >>>>> Chkdsk /f /r did not report anything. I don't think it does
> >>>>> testing deep. Are there any tools that will do? I am trying HD
> >>>>> Tune v2.52, but I don't think that's enough. I need something
> >>>>> like SpinRite, but it done via DOS and doesn't do USB
> >>>>> connections.
> >
> >>>>> Thank you in advance.
> >
> >>>> There is only one option that works and does more than a very
> >>>> simple scan for defective sectors: Remove the disk, connect it
> >>>> directly to an (S)ATA bus and do a long SMART selftest.
> >>>> Look at the SMART attributes and the SMART error log, before and
> >>>> after the test. Unfortunately this is impossible over USB.
> >
> >>> How difficult is it to remove the disk portion? It is one of those
> >>> Maxtor's OneTouch Family? It is one of these:
> >>> http://tinyurl.com/yc2xgp or
> >>> http://www.maxtor.com/portal/site/Ma...Touch%20Family
> >>> ... I think it is about three years old? I guess it can be opened
> >>> since its warranty is over.
> >
> >> No idea. I never bought one of these because of their _very_ bad
> >> reputation for failing often. Usually it is not difficult.

> > Yeah, I see a lot of them failing at my workplace. Looks like the
> > one I have is the newest victim. Do all Maxtor HDDs fail this easily

> Nope, they arent too bad when adequately cooled.

> > or just general external HDDs

> Yes, that appears to be the problem, the design of the
> case means that the drives dont get adequately cooled.

> > including the ones with enclosures for custom HDDs?

> Not sure what this is about, what 'custom HDDs' ?

Sorry I meant custom enclosures that you buy for HDDs. At home, I have
an external Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 (ST325082 3A; 250 GB HDD; 7200 RPM)
in a Kingwin HDD Enclosure (MS-350U-S) via USB (connected when needed).
I noticed this one has a few more vents more than Maxtor's enclosure.
--
[Laser pulsing] "Bah. It's as easy as crushing an ant! You know, the..." [grunting] "Wh-wh-whoa! Hey, take my wallet and leave me alone!" --Mr. Burns from The Simpsons (Fraudcast News; FABF16/FABF18 episode)
/\___/\
/ /\ /\ \ Phillip (Ant) @ http://antfarm.ma.cx (Personal Web Site)
| |o o| | Ant's Quality Foraged Links (AQFL): http://aqfl.net
\ _ / Please remove ANT if replying by e-mail.
( )

....

"Arno Wagner" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:4utd3aF19u82iU1@mid.individual.net
> Previously Budd <Budd@budd.com> wrote:
> > "Arno Wagner" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:4ustfuF19nrn9U2@mid.individual.net
> > > Previously mike <spamme9@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > > ANTant@zimage.com wrote:
> > > > > Are there free programs like SpinRite that does well to do DEEP disk
> > > > > checking/testings on external hard disk drives like Maxtor's USB (160
> > > > > GB)? On two computers at work, I had it had it showed delay write
> > > > > errors. Then, Windows lose connections and I have to repower off and on
> > > > > to access the HDD again. I also tried different power and USB cables
> > > > > since many people use the same HDD. Also, it is not heat beause
> > > > > sometimes I get this problem after a few minutes after powering on from
> > > > > room temperature (not warm either).
> > > > >
> > > > > Chkdsk /f /r did not report anything. I don't think it does testing
> > > > > deep. Are there any tools that will do? I am trying HD Tune v2.52, but I
> > > > > don't think that's enough. I need something like SpinRite, but it done
> > > > > via DOS and doesn't do USB connections.
> > > > >
> > > > > Thank you in advance.
>
> > > > Check out seagate seatools online. See if that does what you want.
>
> > > It does not.
>
> > You don't even know what 'he wants'.

> Read his OP, then you too may know what he wants...

Yes, and obviously you didn't or you would have known that he
doesn't want to do a SMART test. He wants to exercise the drive.
A S.M.A.R.T test hardly exercises the drive.

>
> > > I checked recently
>
> > And how exactly did you check?

Right, and now we know you didn't.

>
> > > because someone claimed these tools could do SMART over USB.
>
> > He doesn't want to.
>
> > > They can not.
>
> > That's what you say. Your word against theirs.

> They don't claim it does SMART over USB.

The "someone" did.

> I just verified that it indeed cannot.

But you cannot and will not tell how.

> It is really simple to check this reliably.

Sure, you just say so and hey presto: it's proof.

>
> Arno

..lke.. ..enst..

"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message news:4utblvF19jr0rU1@mid.individual.net
> Folkert Rienstra <see_reply-to@myweb.nl> wrote
> > <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
> > > Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net> wrote
> > > > ANTant@zimage.com wrote
>
> > > > > Are there free programs like SpinRite that does well
> > > > > to do DEEP disk checking/testings on external hard
> > > > > disk drives like Maxtor's USB (160 GB)?
>
> > > > SpinRite is outdated enough, that it really just
> > > > does a conventional surface scan these days.
>
> > Like it ever did something else.
>
> Corse it did/does. It takes a hell of a lot longer with a drive which
> has marginal sectors than a conventional surface scan does.

Only if it finds something out of the ordinary, else it just trots along.

>
> > > > > On two computers at work, I had it had it showed delay write
> > > > > errors. Then, Windows lose connections and I have to repower off
> > > > > and on to access the HDD again. I also tried different power and
> > > > > USB cables since many people use the same HDD. Also, it is not
> > > > > heat beause sometimes I get this problem after a few minutes after
> > > > > powering on from room temperature (not warm either).
>
> > > > > Chkdsk /f /r did not report anything. I don't think it does testing
> > > > > deep. Are there any tools that will do? I am trying HD Tune v2.52,
> > > > > but I don't think that's enough. I need something like SpinRite,
>
> > > > > but it done via DOS and doesn't do USB connections.
>
> > I'll bet it does if it can be seen in DOS.
>
> Bet it doesnt.
>
> > You need USB with Int13 support.

> You dont know that it even uses that.

Corse I do:

"Is SpinRite compatible with USB and Firewire devices?
The best answer to this is a firm "maybe". DOS device drivers are available
for most USB and Firewire controllers. If such drivers are added to a DOS
boot diskette so that your USB or Firewire drive is "seen" by DOS, SpinRite
will also be able to "see" and operate with it. " source: Spinrite FAQ

It solely relies on the OS, being DOS and what that OS sees, being partitions.
Dos doesn't use drivers -ergo uses Int13- except when there is no Int13 support,
ergo drivers do add Int13 support.

>
> > The same goes for Bart's Disktool. That will also run on Win9x but still needs
> > Int13 support. If you have Win9x check if the USB driver has Int13 support.
>
> > > > There is only one option that works and does more
> > > > than a very simple scan for defective sectors:
>
> > No it doesn't.

> Yes it does, most obviously with access to the SMART data.

It exercises the SMART data? Wow, great. Big improvement.

>
> > > > Remove the disk, connect it directly to an
> > > > (S)ATA bus and do a long SMART selftest.
>
> > > > Look at the SMART attributes and the SMART error log, before
> > > > and after the test. Unfortunately this is impossible over USB.
>
> > > How difficult is it to remove the disk portion? It is one
> > > of those Maxtor's OneTouch Family? It is one of these:
> > > http://tinyurl.com/yc2xgp or
> > >
> > > ... I think it is about three years old? I guess it can be opened
> > > since its warranty is over.

.... ..gn..

Previously ANTant@zimage.com wrote:
> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storage Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net> wrote:
>> Previously Paul Rubin <http://phr.cx@nospam.invalid> wrote:
>> > adykes@panix.com (Al Dykes) writes:
>> >> A third; only power the drive up when doing a backup ?
>> >> It won't get very hot, or for lots of hours.

>> > Backups involve having the drive very active for longish periods.
>> > That's what makes drives get hot, from what I can tell. I have a 3.5"
>> > 160gb Seagate 7200.x drive (not sure of exact model) in a generic usb2
>> > enclosure with a tiny fan. It runs cool when idling or slightly
>> > active even when I run it overnight. But doing a backup, it's quite
>> > warm after 10 minutes or so, and the backup takes much longer than
>> > that.

>> For short backups, it should be ok. For any longer activity, only
>> adequate cooling will work. Not that Seagates or Samsungs are quite
>> as sensitive to heat, but hot HDD are never good.

> Hmm, I guess I know why this HDD has problem. I *DID* use it as a
> regular drive. I didn't care how slow USB2 was. It was basically for
> playing back music, videos, copy VMware images, etc.

> I did notice this Maxtor USB HDD has one vent on the back. The case did
> get hot after a few hours.

There is your problem...

Arno

.... ..gn..

Previously Budd <Budd@budd.com> wrote:
> "Arno Wagner" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:4utd3aF19u82iU1@mid.individual.net
>> Previously Budd <Budd@budd.com> wrote:
>> > "Arno Wagner" <me@privacy.net> wrote in message news:4ustfuF19nrn9U2@mid.individual.net
>> > > Previously mike <spamme9@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > > > ANTant@zimage.com wrote:
>> > > > > Are there free programs like SpinRite that does well to do DEEP disk
>> > > > > checking/testings on external hard disk drives like Maxtor's USB (160
>> > > > > GB)? On two computers at work, I had it had it showed delay write
>> > > > > errors. Then, Windows lose connections and I have to repower off and on
>> > > > > to access the HDD again. I also tried different power and USB cables
>> > > > > since many people use the same HDD. Also, it is not heat beause
>> > > > > sometimes I get this problem after a few minutes after powering on from
>> > > > > room temperature (not warm either).
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Chkdsk /f /r did not report anything. I don't think it does testing
>> > > > > deep. Are there any tools that will do? I am trying HD Tune v2.52, but I
>> > > > > don't think that's enough. I need something like SpinRite, but it done
>> > > > > via DOS and doesn't do USB connections.
>> > > > >
>> > > > > Thank you in advance.
>>
>> > > > Check out seagate seatools online. See if that does what you want.
>>
>> > > It does not.
>>
>> > You don't even know what 'he wants'.

>> Read his OP, then you too may know what he wants...

> Yes, and obviously you didn't or you would have known that he
> doesn't want to do a SMART test. He wants to exercise the drive.
> A S.M.A.R.T test hardly exercises the drive.

>>
>> > > I checked recently
>>
>> > And how exactly did you check?

> Right, and now we know you didn't.

>>
>> > > because someone claimed these tools could do SMART over USB.
>>
>> > He doesn't want to.
>>
>> > > They can not.
>>
>> > That's what you say. Your word against theirs.

>> They don't claim it does SMART over USB.

> The "someone" did.

SEAGATE does not clkaim SMART capability for the USB-compatible
tests. They do know how this works and what they can and cannot
do.

>> I just verified that it indeed cannot.

> But you cannot and will not tell how.

Just so to not give anybody the wrong idea about this "budd"
fellow, one approach is as follows: Run tests with USB
and then check with (S)ATA if there are additional self-test
result in the disk's log. Easy, really.

Arno

.... ..gn..

Previously ANTant@zimage.com wrote:
[...]
> Sorry I meant custom enclosures that you buy for HDDs. At home, I have
> an external Seagate Barracuda 7200.8 (ST325082 3A; 250 GB HDD; 7200 RPM)
> in a Kingwin HDD Enclosure (MS-350U-S) via USB (connected when needed).
> I noticed this one has a few more vents more than Maxtor's enclosure.

Convection cooling is tricky. It usually does not work too well.

(Example for fluids: The technicians at Cernobyl wanted to find out
whether their reactor had adequate convewction cooling. The results
were a bit worse than expected...)

A fan, on the other hand, is a reliable way to get a defined
airflow. And airflow makes all the difference in cooling.

Arno

..d ..e..

Folkert Rienstra <see_reply-to@myweb.nl> wrote
> Rod Speed <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote
>> Folkert Rienstra <see_reply-to@myweb.nl> wrote
>>> <ANTant@zimage.com> wrote
>>>> Arno Wagner <me@privacy.net> wrote
>>>>> ANTant@zimage.com wrote

>>>>>> Are there free programs like SpinRite that does well
>>>>>> to do DEEP disk checking/testings on external hard
>>>>>> disk drives like Maxtor's USB (160 GB)?

>>>>> SpinRite is outdated enough, that it really just
>>>>> does a conventional surface scan these days.

>>> Like it ever did something else.

>> Corse it did/does. It takes a hell of a lot longer with a drive which
>> has marginal sectors than a conventional surface scan does.

> Only if it finds something out of the ordinary, else it just trots along.

Never ever could bull**** its way out of a wet paper bag.

>>>>>> On two computers at work, I had it had it showed delay write
>>>>>> errors. Then, Windows lose connections and I have to repower off
>>>>>> and on to access the HDD again. I also tried different power and
>>>>>> USB cables since many people use the same HDD. Also, it is not
>>>>>> heat beause sometimes I get this problem after a few minutes
>>>>>> after powering on from room temperature (not warm either).

>>>>>> Chkdsk /f /r did not report anything. I don't think it does testing
>>>>>> deep. Are there any tools that will do? I am trying HD Tune v2.52,
>>>>>> but I don't think that's enough. I need something like SpinRite,

>>>>>> but it done via DOS and doesn't do USB connections.

>>> I'll bet it does if it can be seen in DOS.

>> Bet it doesnt.

>>> You need USB with Int13 support.

>> You dont know that it even uses that.

> Corse I do:

Fraid not.

> "Is SpinRite compatible with USB and Firewire devices?
> The best answer to this is a firm "maybe". DOS device
> drivers are available for most USB and Firewire controllers.
> If such drivers are added to a DOS boot diskette so that
> your USB or Firewire drive is "seen" by DOS, SpinRite will
> also be able to "see" and operate with it. " source: Spinrite FAQ

That doesnt apply to the earlier versions.

> It solely relies on the OS,

Wrong again.

> being DOS and what that OS sees, being partitions.
> Dos doesn't use drivers

Wrong again.

> -ergo uses Int13- except when there is no
> Int13 support, ergo drivers do add Int13 support.

You just claimed that dos doesnt use drivers. Cant have it both ways.

>>> The same goes for Bart's Disktool. That will also run
>>> on Win9x but still needs Int13 support. If you have
>>> Win9x check if the USB driver has Int13 support.

>>>>> There is only one option that works and does more
>>>>> than a very simple scan for defective sectors:

>>> No it doesn't.

>> Yes it does, most obviously with access to the SMART data.

> It exercises the SMART data?

ACCESSES aint EXCERCISES, you pathetic excuse for a bull**** artist.

> Wow, great. Big improvement.

Leaves a simple scan for defective sectors for
dead, you pathetic excuse for a bull**** artist.

>>>>> Remove the disk, connect it directly to an
>>>>> (S)ATA bus and do a long SMART selftest.

>>>>> Look at the SMART attributes and the SMART error log, before
>>>>> and after the test. Unfortunately this is impossible over USB.

>>>> How difficult is it to remove the disk portion? It is one
>>>> of those Maxtor's OneTouch Family? It is one of these:
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/yc2xgp or

>>>> ... I think it is about three years old? I guess
>>>> it can be opened since its warranty is over.