Various Topics on Skating

..n ..ber..

I put some video clips of heel-brake stops from higher speed and down a
steep hill on this page:
http://www.roberts-1.com/t/808/hb

Other heel-braking videos I've seen so far show stopping only on flat land
from slower speed. And some people say heel brakes don't really work. Or
that heel-brakes only work for novice terrain and novice speeds. Or that you
can only use a heel-brake in a serious stopping situation if you've got a
"leash" to help with it.

I use heel-brake stops (without a "leash") going down real steep hills into
stop-sign intersections. And for 30-mile road-skate tours out there with
lotsa cars who sometimes do unexpected things right in front of me. For me
heel-brakes are a serious tool that really works for skating in serious
places, so I tried to make some videos that show that.

But . . .
not for speedskates.
There's at least three fundamentally different methods of using a
heel-brake -- and the most effective one I know (the method shown in those
videos) requires a high stiff back on the skate boot. Like on almost all
"recreational" skates. Like on some "fitness" skates but not others.
. . . (Not on serious speedskates -- they need a leash in order to deliver
really strong stopping thru a heel-brake.)

But . . .
even on "recreational" skates with a high back designed for heel-brake
stopping, you have to know and use the right technique, which is not
obvious, and not known or used by most recreational skaters.

I think that a skilled skater on "recreational" skates made by Rollerblade
or K2 can learn to stop as quickly as most people on a bicycle (but not as
quick as a car).

Ken

.... ..e

"Ken Roberts" <iKen7Roberts7-nn7_no7s@yahoo7.com> wrote:

> I put some video clips of heel-brake stops from higher speed and
> down a steep hill on this page:
> http://www.roberts-1.com/t/808/hb

Good videos IMO.
By the way. All I had to do was c**** on a picture and give Media
Player access to the Internet through my firewall. Easy as pie.

Not about braking, but here are two cool skating videos I've posted
before.
http://www.f****r.com/photos/27532210@N04/2782440215/
http://www.f****r.com/photos/27532210@N04/2783292816/

....

On Wed, 20 Aug 2008 23:24:41 GMT, "Ken Roberts"
<iKen7Roberts7-nn7_no7s@yahoo7.com> somehow managed to impart:

>I put some video clips of heel-brake stops from higher speed and down a
>steep hill on this page:
>http://www.roberts-1.com/t/808/hb
>
[snip]

Thanks Ken. I live in Edinburgh Scotland which is rather hilly. I
depend on my heel brake because other methods of braking aren't an
option when there's pedestrians and cyclists restricting your freedom
of movement.

I use Hypno skates and have had some success resurfacing my heel brake
with shoe repair materials. A local chain of key-cutting, shoe-repair
shops called Timpsons sell rubber soles and contact adhesive and I cut
the rubber to size and glue layers on when the brake wears away.

<http://www.henniker.org.uk/html/personal_skating.htm>

best wishes, Dave.
<http://www.henniker.org.uk> 3000 photos especially
Edinburgh & Scotland. + 3D rendered art, old ads etc.
Délété david for email; watch the spam filters.

..torbla..

On Aug 20, 6:24*pm, "Ken Roberts" <iKen7Roberts7-nn7_n...@yahoo7.com>
wrote:
> I put some video clips of heel-brake stops from higher speed and down a
> steep hill on this page:http://www.roberts-1.com/t/808/hb
>
> Other heel-braking videos I've seen so far show stopping only on flat land
> from slower speed. And some people say heel brakes don't really work. Or
> that heel-brakes only work for novice terrain and novice speeds. Or that you
> can only use a heel-brake in a serious stopping situation if you've got a
> "leash" to help with it.
>
> I use heel-brake stops (without a "leash") going down real steep hills into
> stop-sign intersections. And for 30-mile road-skate tours out there with
> lotsa cars who sometimes do unexpected things right in front of me. For me
> heel-brakes are a serious tool that really works for skating in serious
> places, so I tried to make some videos that show that.
>
> But . . .
> not for speedskates.
> There's at least three fundamentally different methods of using a
> heel-brake -- and the most effective one I know (the method shown in those
> videos) requires a high stiff back on the skate boot. Like on almost all
> "recreational" skates. Like on some "fitness" skates but not others.
> *. . . (Not on serious speedskates -- they need a leash in order to deliver
> really strong stopping thru a heel-brake.)
>
> But . . .
> even on "recreational" skates with a high back designed for heel-brake
> stopping, you have to know and use the right technique, which is not
> obvious, and not known or used by most recreational skaters.
>
> I think that a skilled skater on "recreational" skates made by Rollerblade
> or K2 can learn to stop as quickly as most people on a bicycle (but not as
> quick as a car).
>
> Ken

What do you think of one footed heel braking? Obvously less stable ,
but it seems,possibly, you can center more weight on the brake

Also
What about double heel brakes?.....it allows for more rubber on road,
though it does limit crossover clearance and other moves like
transistions to back wards...heel toe skating etc...

..torbla..

On Aug 21, 6:46�am, Motorblade <motorbl...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> What do you think of one footed heel braking?

by this i mean non brake foot liffted and tucked up close to braking
leg

> Also
> What about double heel brakes?

meaning brakes on both skates


I have used both methods for stopping on hills while wearing a pack
during my skate delivery days

the one footed requires very smooth consistent surface.....the double
brake simply means you don't wear one brake out so quick ....plus you
get double the stopping friction.....its REALLY fast.....you need (of
course) a second set of axles/brakes etc....

also the grey "non-marking" brakes from RB are harder and wear out
MUCH slower than the black rubber ones

..n ..ber..

"Motorblade" <motorblade@aol.com> wrote
> What do you think of one footed heel braking?
That's exactly what the third video on that page demonstrates -- unless
we're talking about different things.

> Obvously less stable, but it seems,possibly,
> you can center more weight on the brake

I think it's a helpful learning exercise toward focusing centering more
weight on the brake pad. The problem is that it also tends to put more body
weight on the rear _wheel_ of the braking skate. My current thinking is that
getting weight back off that rear _wheel_ is the more important problem for
my conscious focus, because strong stopping tends to throw more weight
forward from the brake pad onto that wheel.

There's two aspects to getting more weight focused thru the brake pad: (1)
getting weight off the rear skate wheels; (2) getting weight off _all_ the
front skate wheels including the rear one next to the brake pad. Lifting the
rear skate off the ground only addresses one of those aspects (perhaps at
the expense of the other).

> What about double heel brakes?
Most of my skates have brake pads on both skates - (just not the ones in I
was using in that video). I do that: (1) in case one brake pad wears down to
far during a road tour (or in case of mechanical failure, though that's
never happened to me). (2) so I can rest one set of leg muscles and switch
to the other in the middle of a long downhill.

> it allows for more rubber on road
Sounds like now you're talking about actually using both brake pads
simultaneously. I've tried that on controlled practice situations.

"more rubber on the road" addresses only one of the two key factors which
determine stopping force. The other factor is how much downward force is
applied thru each brake pad. The answer is: at most _half_ the force on each
pad. Twice as much rubber at half the force produces (roughly) the same
stopping force. But actually it's likely less than that because with
simultaneous double-heel-braking you don't have as much balance control on
each skate, so I likely have more weight on the rear wheel of each braking
skate than I would if I were heel-braking with only one skate.

More important, in that position with both skates tilted back on their brake
pads, I'm way more committed to the braking move. It limits the speed of
recovery moves in case something goes wrong. Since I do most of my skating
out on real roads where things can change fast, I normally stay away from
methods that restrict my recovery move options and quickness.

> it does limit crossover clearance
No more so than long-blade frames used by the world's fastest ice
speedskaters.
The advantage of two heel-brakes it that it's the _same_ on both skates, so
the crossovers are symmetrical.

Ken

..torbla..

The other problem i found with heel braking is wedging the brake
(usually to the inside) so that the brake starts to be less flat and
your skate leans farther and farther to contact the rubber
properly.....of course a few brakes with the opposite "lean" would
plane it out again....but it is definitely a point of concentration to
keep the pressure even and avoid leaning the skate during braking....
Know what I mean ?

..e ..ockma..

Ken Roberts:
> The other factor is how much downward force is applied thru each brake
> pad.

True.

> The answer is: at most _half_ the force on each pad.

False.

> Twice as much rubber at half the force produces (roughly) the same
> stopping force.

True, but your "half the force" ***umption is false.

When using two brake pads simultaneously, using what you call the
"muscle-torque-thru-ankle-joint" method on your website, "the force
coming primarily from isometric shin muscle activity" (as per your
website) is doubled due to employment of shin muscles from both legs.

Thus, using your terminology, you are dealing with twice as much rubber
at full force producing (roughly) twice the stopping power.

--
Uwe Brockmann, uwe@pobox.com

..torbla..

On Aug 24, 3:20*pm, u...@panix.com (Uwe Brockmann) wrote:

>
> Thus, using your terminology, you are dealing with twice as much rubber
> at full force producing (roughly) twice the stopping power.
>
> --
> Uwe Brockmann, u...@pobox.com

It certainly feels that way,,,,and I couldn't state the physics of
it....but i think Uwe did....quite well.

fritz

..n ..ber..

Uwe Brockmann wrote
> True, but your "half the force" ***umption is false.
> When using two brake pads simultaneously, using what you call the
> "muscle-torque-thru-ankle-joint" method on your website, "the force
> coming primarily from isometric shin muscle activity" (as per your
> website) is doubled due to employment of shin muscles from both legs.

Good point if you use _that_ method of heel-brake stopping.
Which I think is not a very effective method unless ***isted by a leash, or
if you've got way stronger shin muscles than almost anybody.
(and that was not the method I was using in the videos linked from that
page)

I think to get really effective quick stopping you've got to use a method
which gets nearly full body weight onto the brake pad(s) and off from the
wheels. If you start with a really effective method on a single
heel-brake -- such as using a leash or using the method I was demonstrating
in my videos by pressing my lower leg back against the inside of the high
cuff on my recreational skates -- then pressing a second brake pad
simultaneously doesn't add much (and might subtract) from sustainable
stopping force -- because the fundamental limiting factor is total body
weight, not shin muscles.

Simultaneous double heel-braking can be fun as a trick for smooth flat
pavement, but I very much doubt that many people are going to be satisfied
with it as a stopping method for serious situations like going down a steep
hill (over 10% grade) with a stop-sign intersection at the bottom.

Ken