Various Topics on Subaru

..b ..il..

"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:nhoe94lgtp6gsuuol56at79bn3jgb0s7b1@4ax.com...
>I frequently end up with a flat battery in my Forester05, despite the
> garage test rig reporting that the alternator and battery are in
> perfect condition.
>
> What am I doing wrong ? I am driving without the heater fan or
> sidelights on. If you run the battery low by parking with the lights
> on (say), there is no way the battery will ever recover unless you
> drive with the fan on. (I am not joking). Short journeys or long.
>
> Charging lead-acid batteries is not rocket science, all you do is put
> 14.6v across the terminals until the charge current shows it to be
> fully charged, then maintain a 14.2v trickle charge. Try plugging a
> voltmeter into your cigar lighter socket and watch what happens on
> your lovely Subaru, then compare it to any other make.

You haven't said what the charging voltage reads with the engine
running and everything else off. Is it higher than battery voltage
with the engine off? Is it higher at 2000 rpms than at idle?

Have you bothered to check the current draw when the engine is off
and all accessories, interior lights, etc. are off?

Disconnect the negative terminal and put an ammeter between the post
and the terminal. After waiting several seconds for any capacitors to
recharge, the current should be less than 0.05 amps. Anything higher,
start pulling fuses one by one until you discover the circuit with the
problem.

Bob

..lbe.. ..i..

"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:

>
>"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:nhoe94lgtp6gsuuol56at79bn3jgb0s7b1@4ax.com.. .
>>I frequently end up with a flat battery in my Forester05, despite the
>> garage test rig reporting that the alternator and battery are in
>> perfect condition.
>>
>> What am I doing wrong ? I am driving without the heater fan or
>> sidelights on. If you run the battery low by parking with the lights
>> on (say), there is no way the battery will ever recover unless you
>> drive with the fan on. (I am not joking). Short journeys or long.
>>
>> Charging lead-acid batteries is not rocket science, all you do is put
>> 14.6v across the terminals until the charge current shows it to be
>> fully charged, then maintain a 14.2v trickle charge. Try plugging a
>> voltmeter into your cigar lighter socket and watch what happens on
>> your lovely Subaru, then compare it to any other make.
>
>You haven't said what the charging voltage reads with the engine
>running and everything else off. Is it higher than battery voltage
>with the engine off? Is it higher at 2000 rpms than at idle?

All modern cars including Subarus can charge at max rate when the
engine is idling. Increasing the revs makes no difference to any of
them including mine.

The charging voltage is 14.7v during the periods when it is delivering
any charge to the battery.

>Have you bothered to check the current draw when the engine is off
>and all accessories, interior lights, etc. are off?
>
>Disconnect the negative terminal and put an ammeter between the post
>and the terminal. After waiting several seconds for any capacitors to
>recharge, the current should be less than 0.05 amps. Anything higher,
>start pulling fuses one by one until you discover the circuit with the
>problem.

There is absolutely no need to measure current flow, the charge rate
of the battery is entirely down to the voltage across the terminals.
14.2v for minimum trickle charge recommended for normal use when fully
charged, 14.7v for a healthy charge rate.

The system is perfectly capable of doing this continuously, indeed it
does exactly this with the lights on. It is only in conditions of
minimum load that it fails to maintain even a trickle charge, despite
the battery state being below 50%.

Gilbert

>Bob

..b ..il..

"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:d4fp949jv3rk9a7jobdi1tf07p6vbqd349@4ax.com...
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>news:nhoe94lgtp6gsuuol56at79bn3jgb0s7b1@4ax.com. ..
>>>I frequently end up with a flat battery in my Forester05, despite the
>>> garage test rig reporting that the alternator and battery are in
>>> perfect condition.
>>>
>>> What am I doing wrong ? I am driving without the heater fan or
>>> sidelights on. If you run the battery low by parking with the lights
>>> on (say), there is no way the battery will ever recover unless you
>>> drive with the fan on. (I am not joking). Short journeys or long.
>>>
>>> Charging lead-acid batteries is not rocket science, all you do is put
>>> 14.6v across the terminals until the charge current shows it to be
>>> fully charged, then maintain a 14.2v trickle charge. Try plugging a
>>> voltmeter into your cigar lighter socket and watch what happens on
>>> your lovely Subaru, then compare it to any other make.
>>
>>You haven't said what the charging voltage reads with the engine
>>running and everything else off. Is it higher than battery voltage
>>with the engine off? Is it higher at 2000 rpms than at idle?
>
> All modern cars including Subarus can charge at max rate when the
> engine is idling. Increasing the revs makes no difference to any of
> them including mine.
>
> The charging voltage is 14.7v during the periods when it is delivering
> any charge to the battery.
>
>>Have you bothered to check the current draw when the engine is off
>>and all accessories, interior lights, etc. are off?
>>
>>Disconnect the negative terminal and put an ammeter between the post
>>and the terminal. After waiting several seconds for any capacitors to
>>recharge, the current should be less than 0.05 amps. Anything higher,
>>start pulling fuses one by one until you discover the circuit with the
>>problem.
>
> There is absolutely no need to measure current flow, the charge rate
> of the battery is entirely down to the voltage across the terminals.
> 14.2v for minimum trickle charge recommended for normal use when fully
> charged, 14.7v for a healthy charge rate.
>
> The system is perfectly capable of doing this continuously, indeed it
> does exactly this with the lights on. It is only in conditions of
> minimum load that it fails to maintain even a trickle charge, despite
> the battery state being below 50%.
>
> Gilbert
>
>>Bob

If this were any other make of car, I'd say you had a bad voltage
regulator on your alternator. Has your garage tried installing a
new or rebuilt alternator as a test? It's one of the benefits of
going to a dealer with these problems. Yes, I'm aware that
alternators on this car cost upwards of $450 list.

You mentioned in another post that you think the ECU controls
the alternator output. I think you're mistaken. The voltage
regulator on most modern alternators consists of a small logic
board, not just static components. Hence the term "smart".

If the swapped alternator behaves properly, and you're not
covered under warranty, you might be able to save $$$ by
replacing just the voltage regulator, only (!) $170 list.

Bob

..lbe.. ..i..

"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:

>
>"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>news:d4fp949jv3rk9a7jobdi1tf07p6vbqd349@4ax.com.. .
>> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>news:nhoe94lgtp6gsuuol56at79bn3jgb0s7b1@4ax.com ...
>>>>I frequently end up with a flat battery in my Forester05, despite the
>>>> garage test rig reporting that the alternator and battery are in
>>>> perfect condition.
>>>>
>>>> What am I doing wrong ? I am driving without the heater fan or
>>>> sidelights on. If you run the battery low by parking with the lights
>>>> on (say), there is no way the battery will ever recover unless you
>>>> drive with the fan on. (I am not joking). Short journeys or long.
>>>>
>>>> Charging lead-acid batteries is not rocket science, all you do is put
>>>> 14.6v across the terminals until the charge current shows it to be
>>>> fully charged, then maintain a 14.2v trickle charge. Try plugging a
>>>> voltmeter into your cigar lighter socket and watch what happens on
>>>> your lovely Subaru, then compare it to any other make.
>>>
>>>You haven't said what the charging voltage reads with the engine
>>>running and everything else off. Is it higher than battery voltage
>>>with the engine off? Is it higher at 2000 rpms than at idle?
>>
>> All modern cars including Subarus can charge at max rate when the
>> engine is idling. Increasing the revs makes no difference to any of
>> them including mine.
>>
>> The charging voltage is 14.7v during the periods when it is delivering
>> any charge to the battery.
>>
>>>Have you bothered to check the current draw when the engine is off
>>>and all accessories, interior lights, etc. are off?
>>>
>>>Disconnect the negative terminal and put an ammeter between the post
>>>and the terminal. After waiting several seconds for any capacitors to
>>>recharge, the current should be less than 0.05 amps. Anything higher,
>>>start pulling fuses one by one until you discover the circuit with the
>>>problem.
>>
>> There is absolutely no need to measure current flow, the charge rate
>> of the battery is entirely down to the voltage across the terminals.
>> 14.2v for minimum trickle charge recommended for normal use when fully
>> charged, 14.7v for a healthy charge rate.
>>
>> The system is perfectly capable of doing this continuously, indeed it
>> does exactly this with the lights on. It is only in conditions of
>> minimum load that it fails to maintain even a trickle charge, despite
>> the battery state being below 50%.
>>
>> Gilbert
>>
>>>Bob
>
>If this were any other make of car, I'd say you had a bad voltage
>regulator on your alternator. Has your garage tried installing a
>new or rebuilt alternator as a test? It's one of the benefits of
>going to a dealer with these problems. Yes, I'm aware that
>alternators on this car cost upwards of $450 list.
>
>You mentioned in another post that you think the ECU controls
>the alternator output. I think you're mistaken. The voltage
>regulator on most modern alternators consists of a small logic
>board, not just static components. Hence the term "smart".
>
>If the swapped alternator behaves properly, and you're not
>covered under warranty, you might be able to save $$$ by
>replacing just the voltage regulator, only (!) $170 list.
>
>Bob

The dealer told me the ECU was the voltage regulator. The car is still
in warranty (just) and I am talking to the directors at the dealership
to get them to accept the fault. It would be nice if it was the
alternator, but my suspicions are aroused by the fact that it behaves
perfectly with the fan or lights on.

The other day I stopped at the end of a trip leaving the radio on for
15 minutes before re-starting (ie: didn't go through the 'off' posn).
The battery volts never went above 12v the whole way home. I hope it
is repeatable.

It would be really nice if someone else could do the same check as me,
I guarantee you will be surprised by the fluctuations - who knows,
maybe they are all like this ?

Gilbert

..b ..il..

"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:su3s94t6cbuqeipj80crm7qqlhl1tqpcr7@4ax.com...
> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>news:d4fp949jv3rk9a7jobdi1tf07p6vbqd349@4ax.com. ..
>>> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:nhoe94lgtp6gsuuol56at79bn3jgb0s7b1@4ax.co m...
>>>>>I frequently end up with a flat battery in my Forester05, despite the
>>>>> garage test rig reporting that the alternator and battery are in
>>>>> perfect condition.
>>>>>
>>>>> What am I doing wrong ? I am driving without the heater fan or
>>>>> sidelights on. If you run the battery low by parking with the lights
>>>>> on (say), there is no way the battery will ever recover unless you
>>>>> drive with the fan on. (I am not joking). Short journeys or long.
>>>>>
>>>>> Charging lead-acid batteries is not rocket science, all you do is put
>>>>> 14.6v across the terminals until the charge current shows it to be
>>>>> fully charged, then maintain a 14.2v trickle charge. Try plugging a
>>>>> voltmeter into your cigar lighter socket and watch what happens on
>>>>> your lovely Subaru, then compare it to any other make.
>>>>
>>>>You haven't said what the charging voltage reads with the engine
>>>>running and everything else off. Is it higher than battery voltage
>>>>with the engine off? Is it higher at 2000 rpms than at idle?
>>>
>>> All modern cars including Subarus can charge at max rate when the
>>> engine is idling. Increasing the revs makes no difference to any of
>>> them including mine.
>>>
>>> The charging voltage is 14.7v during the periods when it is delivering
>>> any charge to the battery.
>>>
>>>>Have you bothered to check the current draw when the engine is off
>>>>and all accessories, interior lights, etc. are off?
>>>>
>>>>Disconnect the negative terminal and put an ammeter between the post
>>>>and the terminal. After waiting several seconds for any capacitors to
>>>>recharge, the current should be less than 0.05 amps. Anything higher,
>>>>start pulling fuses one by one until you discover the circuit with the
>>>>problem.
>>>
>>> There is absolutely no need to measure current flow, the charge rate
>>> of the battery is entirely down to the voltage across the terminals.
>>> 14.2v for minimum trickle charge recommended for normal use when fully
>>> charged, 14.7v for a healthy charge rate.
>>>
>>> The system is perfectly capable of doing this continuously, indeed it
>>> does exactly this with the lights on. It is only in conditions of
>>> minimum load that it fails to maintain even a trickle charge, despite
>>> the battery state being below 50%.
>>>
>>> Gilbert
>>>
>>>>Bob
>>
>>If this were any other make of car, I'd say you had a bad voltage
>>regulator on your alternator. Has your garage tried installing a
>>new or rebuilt alternator as a test? It's one of the benefits of
>>going to a dealer with these problems. Yes, I'm aware that
>>alternators on this car cost upwards of $450 list.
>>
>>You mentioned in another post that you think the ECU controls
>>the alternator output. I think you're mistaken. The voltage
>>regulator on most modern alternators consists of a small logic
>>board, not just static components. Hence the term "smart".
>>
>>If the swapped alternator behaves properly, and you're not
>>covered under warranty, you might be able to save $$$ by
>>replacing just the voltage regulator, only (!) $170 list.
>>
>>Bob
>
> The dealer told me the ECU was the voltage regulator. The car is still
> in warranty (just) and I am talking to the directors at the dealership
> to get them to accept the fault. It would be nice if it was the
> alternator, but my suspicions are aroused by the fact that it behaves
> perfectly with the fan or lights on.
>
> The other day I stopped at the end of a trip leaving the radio on for
> 15 minutes before re-starting (ie: didn't go through the 'off' posn).
> The battery volts never went above 12v the whole way home. I hope it
> is repeatable.
>
> It would be really nice if someone else could do the same check as me,
> I guarantee you will be surprised by the fluctuations - who knows,
> maybe they are all like this ?
>
> Gilbert

If you reported this problem before your warranty ran out, then you're
covered. Also, I believe your dealer is mistaken about the ECU
controlling the alternator. You wouldn't have a design with two
methods of voltage regulation, too complicated.

Since the function of the voltage regulator is to control the alternator
output based on system load and yours doesn't respond the way it
should, then it should be a no-brainer to put in a working alternator
and compare it.

Perhaps it's failing when the engine gets good and hot and your dealer
is testing it after it's cooled off.

They could, if they wanted to, hook you up with a portable ODBC II
monitor and monitor the system voltage level while you have the
car. When they play it back, they'll see what you're talking about.

But trying a replacement alternator costs them nothing but the time
to install it. If it's not the solution, they can put it back on the shelf.

Bob

.... ..a..

Bob Bailin wrote:
>
> "Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:su3s94t6cbuqeipj80crm7qqlhl1tqpcr7@4ax.com...
>> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> "Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>> news:d4fp949jv3rk9a7jobdi1tf07p6vbqd349@4ax.com...
>>>> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:nhoe94lgtp6gsuuol56at79bn3jgb0s7b1@4ax.com...
>>>>>> I frequently end up with a flat battery in my Forester05, despite the
>>>>>> garage test rig reporting that the alternator and battery are in
>>>>>> perfect condition.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What am I doing wrong ? I am driving without the heater fan or
>>>>>> sidelights on. If you run the battery low by parking with the lights
>>>>>> on (say), there is no way the battery will ever recover unless you
>>>>>> drive with the fan on. (I am not joking). Short journeys or long.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Charging lead-acid batteries is not rocket science, all you do is put
>>>>>> 14.6v across the terminals until the charge current shows it to be
>>>>>> fully charged, then maintain a 14.2v trickle charge. Try plugging a
>>>>>> voltmeter into your cigar lighter socket and watch what happens on
>>>>>> your lovely Subaru, then compare it to any other make.
>>>>>
>>>>> You haven't said what the charging voltage reads with the engine
>>>>> running and everything else off. Is it higher than battery voltage
>>>>> with the engine off? Is it higher at 2000 rpms than at idle?
>>>>
>>>> All modern cars including Subarus can charge at max rate when the
>>>> engine is idling. Increasing the revs makes no difference to any of
>>>> them including mine.
>>>>
>>>> The charging voltage is 14.7v during the periods when it is delivering
>>>> any charge to the battery.
>>>>
>>>>> Have you bothered to check the current draw when the engine is off
>>>>> and all accessories, interior lights, etc. are off?
>>>>>
>>>>> Disconnect the negative terminal and put an ammeter between the post
>>>>> and the terminal. After waiting several seconds for any capacitors to
>>>>> recharge, the current should be less than 0.05 amps. Anything higher,
>>>>> start pulling fuses one by one until you discover the circuit with the
>>>>> problem.
>>>>
>>>> There is absolutely no need to measure current flow, the charge rate
>>>> of the battery is entirely down to the voltage across the terminals.
>>>> 14.2v for minimum trickle charge recommended for normal use when fully
>>>> charged, 14.7v for a healthy charge rate.
>>>>
>>>> The system is perfectly capable of doing this continuously, indeed it
>>>> does exactly this with the lights on. It is only in conditions of
>>>> minimum load that it fails to maintain even a trickle charge, despite
>>>> the battery state being below 50%.
>>>>
>>>> Gilbert
>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>
>>> If this were any other make of car, I'd say you had a bad voltage
>>> regulator on your alternator. Has your garage tried installing a
>>> new or rebuilt alternator as a test? It's one of the benefits of
>>> going to a dealer with these problems. Yes, I'm aware that
>>> alternators on this car cost upwards of $450 list.
>>>
>>> You mentioned in another post that you think the ECU controls
>>> the alternator output. I think you're mistaken. The voltage
>>> regulator on most modern alternators consists of a small logic
>>> board, not just static components. Hence the term "smart".
>>>
>>> If the swapped alternator behaves properly, and you're not
>>> covered under warranty, you might be able to save $$$ by
>>> replacing just the voltage regulator, only (!) $170 list.
>>>
>>> Bob
>>
>> The dealer told me the ECU was the voltage regulator. The car is still
>> in warranty (just) and I am talking to the directors at the dealership
>> to get them to accept the fault. It would be nice if it was the
>> alternator, but my suspicions are aroused by the fact that it behaves
>> perfectly with the fan or lights on.
>>
>> The other day I stopped at the end of a trip leaving the radio on for
>> 15 minutes before re-starting (ie: didn't go through the 'off' posn).
>> The battery volts never went above 12v the whole way home. I hope it
>> is repeatable.
>>
>> It would be really nice if someone else could do the same check as me,
>> I guarantee you will be surprised by the fluctuations - who knows,
>> maybe they are all like this ?
>>
>> Gilbert
>
> If you reported this problem before your warranty ran out, then you're
> covered. Also, I believe your dealer is mistaken about the ECU
> controlling the alternator. You wouldn't have a design with two
> methods of voltage regulation, too complicated.
>
> Since the function of the voltage regulator is to control the alternator
> output based on system load and yours doesn't respond the way it
> should, then it should be a no-brainer to put in a working alternator
> and compare it.
>
> Perhaps it's failing when the engine gets good and hot and your dealer
> is testing it after it's cooled off.
>
> They could, if they wanted to, hook you up with a portable ODBC II
> monitor and monitor the system voltage level while you have the
> car. When they play it back, they'll see what you're talking about.
>
> But trying a replacement alternator costs them nothing but the time
> to install it. If it's not the solution, they can put it back on the shelf.
>
> Bob
Hi,
I think the dealer techs ae incompetent. Time to try another dealer.

..lbe.. ..i..

I just talked to the Subaru importers, and they know all about this
problem, including having looked for ways of fixing it without
modifying the ECU software. They can offer no solution other than
driving with the fan or lights on all the time. Apparently it affects
all models since 2004, and is due to trying to get the best results
from carbon emission tests by keeping the generator off-load.
Gilbert.

Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote:

>Bob Bailin wrote:
>>
>> "Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>> news:su3s94t6cbuqeipj80crm7qqlhl1tqpcr7@4ax.com...
>>> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:d4fp949jv3rk9a7jobdi1tf07p6vbqd349@4ax.com...
>>>>> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:nhoe94lgtp6gsuuol56at79bn3jgb0s7b1@4ax.com...
>>>>>>> I frequently end up with a flat battery in my Forester05, despite the
>>>>>>> garage test rig reporting that the alternator and battery are in
>>>>>>> perfect condition.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What am I doing wrong ? I am driving without the heater fan or
>>>>>>> sidelights on. If you run the battery low by parking with the lights
>>>>>>> on (say), there is no way the battery will ever recover unless you
>>>>>>> drive with the fan on. (I am not joking). Short journeys or long.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Charging lead-acid batteries is not rocket science, all you do is put
>>>>>>> 14.6v across the terminals until the charge current shows it to be
>>>>>>> fully charged, then maintain a 14.2v trickle charge. Try plugging a
>>>>>>> voltmeter into your cigar lighter socket and watch what happens on
>>>>>>> your lovely Subaru, then compare it to any other make.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You haven't said what the charging voltage reads with the engine
>>>>>> running and everything else off. Is it higher than battery voltage
>>>>>> with the engine off? Is it higher at 2000 rpms than at idle?
>>>>>
>>>>> All modern cars including Subarus can charge at max rate when the
>>>>> engine is idling. Increasing the revs makes no difference to any of
>>>>> them including mine.
>>>>>
>>>>> The charging voltage is 14.7v during the periods when it is delivering
>>>>> any charge to the battery.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Have you bothered to check the current draw when the engine is off
>>>>>> and all accessories, interior lights, etc. are off?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Disconnect the negative terminal and put an ammeter between the post
>>>>>> and the terminal. After waiting several seconds for any capacitors to
>>>>>> recharge, the current should be less than 0.05 amps. Anything higher,
>>>>>> start pulling fuses one by one until you discover the circuit with the
>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>
>>>>> There is absolutely no need to measure current flow, the charge rate
>>>>> of the battery is entirely down to the voltage across the terminals.
>>>>> 14.2v for minimum trickle charge recommended for normal use when fully
>>>>> charged, 14.7v for a healthy charge rate.
>>>>>
>>>>> The system is perfectly capable of doing this continuously, indeed it
>>>>> does exactly this with the lights on. It is only in conditions of
>>>>> minimum load that it fails to maintain even a trickle charge, despite
>>>>> the battery state being below 50%.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gilbert
>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>> If this were any other make of car, I'd say you had a bad voltage
>>>> regulator on your alternator. Has your garage tried installing a
>>>> new or rebuilt alternator as a test? It's one of the benefits of
>>>> going to a dealer with these problems. Yes, I'm aware that
>>>> alternators on this car cost upwards of $450 list.
>>>>
>>>> You mentioned in another post that you think the ECU controls
>>>> the alternator output. I think you're mistaken. The voltage
>>>> regulator on most modern alternators consists of a small logic
>>>> board, not just static components. Hence the term "smart".
>>>>
>>>> If the swapped alternator behaves properly, and you're not
>>>> covered under warranty, you might be able to save $$$ by
>>>> replacing just the voltage regulator, only (!) $170 list.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>
>>> The dealer told me the ECU was the voltage regulator. The car is still
>>> in warranty (just) and I am talking to the directors at the dealership
>>> to get them to accept the fault. It would be nice if it was the
>>> alternator, but my suspicions are aroused by the fact that it behaves
>>> perfectly with the fan or lights on.
>>>
>>> The other day I stopped at the end of a trip leaving the radio on for
>>> 15 minutes before re-starting (ie: didn't go through the 'off' posn).
>>> The battery volts never went above 12v the whole way home. I hope it
>>> is repeatable.
>>>
>>> It would be really nice if someone else could do the same check as me,
>>> I guarantee you will be surprised by the fluctuations - who knows,
>>> maybe they are all like this ?
>>>
>>> Gilbert
>>
>> If you reported this problem before your warranty ran out, then you're
>> covered. Also, I believe your dealer is mistaken about the ECU
>> controlling the alternator. You wouldn't have a design with two
>> methods of voltage regulation, too complicated.
>>
>> Since the function of the voltage regulator is to control the alternator
>> output based on system load and yours doesn't respond the way it
>> should, then it should be a no-brainer to put in a working alternator
>> and compare it.
>>
>> Perhaps it's failing when the engine gets good and hot and your dealer
>> is testing it after it's cooled off.
>>
>> They could, if they wanted to, hook you up with a portable ODBC II
>> monitor and monitor the system voltage level while you have the
>> car. When they play it back, they'll see what you're talking about.
>>
>> But trying a replacement alternator costs them nothing but the time
>> to install it. If it's not the solution, they can put it back on the shelf.
>>
>> Bob
>Hi,
>I think the dealer techs ae incompetent. Time to try another dealer.

.... .. ..c.. ..x..

Gilbert Smith wrote:

> I just talked to the Subaru importers, and they know all about this
> problem, including having looked for ways of fixing it without
> modifying the ECU software. They can offer no solution other than
> driving with the fan or lights on all the time. Apparently it affects
> all models since 2004, and is due to trying to get the best results
> from carbon emission tests by keeping the generator off-load.
> Gilbert.
>
> Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>
>>Bob Bailin wrote:
>>
>>>"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>news:su3s94t6cbuqeipj80crm7qqlhl1tqpcr7@4ax.com ...
>>>
>>>>"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:d4fp949jv3rk9a7jobdi1tf07p6vbqd349@4ax.c om...
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:nhoe94lgtp6gsuuol56at79bn3jgb0s7b1@4ax .com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I frequently end up with a flat battery in my Forester05, despite the
>>>>>>>>garage test rig reporting that the alternator and battery are in
>>>>>>>>perfect condition.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>What am I doing wrong ? I am driving without the heater fan or
>>>>>>>>sidelights on. If you run the battery low by parking with the lights
>>>>>>>>on (say), there is no way the battery will ever recover unless you
>>>>>>>>drive with the fan on. (I am not joking). Short journeys or long.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Charging lead-acid batteries is not rocket science, all you do is put
>>>>>>>>14.6v across the terminals until the charge current shows it to be
>>>>>>>>fully charged, then maintain a 14.2v trickle charge. Try plugging a
>>>>>>>>voltmeter into your cigar lighter socket and watch what happens on
>>>>>>>>your lovely Subaru, then compare it to any other make.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You haven't said what the charging voltage reads with the engine
>>>>>>>running and everything else off. Is it higher than battery voltage
>>>>>>>with the engine off? Is it higher at 2000 rpms than at idle?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>All modern cars including Subarus can charge at max rate when the
>>>>>>engine is idling. Increasing the revs makes no difference to any of
>>>>>>them including mine.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The charging voltage is 14.7v during the periods when it is delivering
>>>>>>any charge to the battery.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Have you bothered to check the current draw when the engine is off
>>>>>>>and all accessories, interior lights, etc. are off?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Disconnect the negative terminal and put an ammeter between the post
>>>>>>>and the terminal. After waiting several seconds for any capacitors to
>>>>>>>recharge, the current should be less than 0.05 amps. Anything higher,
>>>>>>>start pulling fuses one by one until you discover the circuit with the
>>>>>>>problem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There is absolutely no need to measure current flow, the charge rate
>>>>>>of the battery is entirely down to the voltage across the terminals.
>>>>>>14.2v for minimum trickle charge recommended for normal use when fully
>>>>>>charged, 14.7v for a healthy charge rate.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The system is perfectly capable of doing this continuously, indeed it
>>>>>>does exactly this with the lights on. It is only in conditions of
>>>>>>minimum load that it fails to maintain even a trickle charge, despite
>>>>>>the battery state being below 50%.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Gilbert
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>If this were any other make of car, I'd say you had a bad voltage
>>>>>regulator on your alternator. Has your garage tried installing a
>>>>>new or rebuilt alternator as a test? It's one of the benefits of
>>>>>going to a dealer with these problems. Yes, I'm aware that
>>>>>alternators on this car cost upwards of $450 list.
>>>>>
>>>>>You mentioned in another post that you think the ECU controls
>>>>>the alternator output. I think you're mistaken. The voltage
>>>>>regulator on most modern alternators consists of a small logic
>>>>>board, not just static components. Hence the term "smart".
>>>>>
>>>>>If the swapped alternator behaves properly, and you're not
>>>>>covered under warranty, you might be able to save $$$ by
>>>>>replacing just the voltage regulator, only (!) $170 list.
>>>>>
>>>>>Bob
>>>>
>>>>The dealer told me the ECU was the voltage regulator. The car is still
>>>>in warranty (just) and I am talking to the directors at the dealership
>>>>to get them to accept the fault. It would be nice if it was the
>>>>alternator, but my suspicions are aroused by the fact that it behaves
>>>>perfectly with the fan or lights on.
>>>>
>>>>The other day I stopped at the end of a trip leaving the radio on for
>>>>15 minutes before re-starting (ie: didn't go through the 'off' posn).
>>>>The battery volts never went above 12v the whole way home. I hope it
>>>>is repeatable.
>>>>
>>>>It would be really nice if someone else could do the same check as me,
>>>>I guarantee you will be surprised by the fluctuations - who knows,
>>>>maybe they are all like this ?
>>>>
>>>>Gilbert
>>>
>>>If you reported this problem before your warranty ran out, then you're
>>>covered. Also, I believe your dealer is mistaken about the ECU
>>>controlling the alternator. You wouldn't have a design with two
>>>methods of voltage regulation, too complicated.
>>>
>>>Since the function of the voltage regulator is to control the alternator
>>>output based on system load and yours doesn't respond the way it
>>>should, then it should be a no-brainer to put in a working alternator
>>>and compare it.
>>>
>>>Perhaps it's failing when the engine gets good and hot and your dealer
>>>is testing it after it's cooled off.
>>>
>>>They could, if they wanted to, hook you up with a portable ODBC II
>>>monitor and monitor the system voltage level while you have the
>>>car. When they play it back, they'll see what you're talking about.
>>>
>>>But trying a replacement alternator costs them nothing but the time
>>>to install it. If it's not the solution, they can put it back on the shelf.
>>>
>>>Bob
>>
>>Hi,
>>I think the dealer techs ae incompetent. Time to try another dealer.

I have yet to experience a dead battery (due to my own negilgence OR the
'smart voltage regulatoer' issue you mention) in my '06 WRX. If the
system was incapable of keeping the battery charged, shouldn;t I have
had a dead battery several times by now?

I'm in the US - are you? Could this be specific to another market?

Carl


--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)

..galu..

Carl 1 Lucky Texan wrote:
> Gilbert Smith wrote:
>
>> I just talked to the Subaru importers, and they know all about this
>> problem, including having looked for ways of fixing it without
>> modifying the ECU software. They can offer no solution other than
>> driving with the fan or lights on all the time. Apparently it affects
>> all models since 2004, and is due to trying to get the best results
>> from carbon emission tests by keeping the generator off-load.
>> Gilbert.
>>


The needle on my BS meter just went into the red zone

..lbe.. ..i..

Carl 1 Lucky Texan <alckytxn@swbell.not> wrote:

>Gilbert Smith wrote:
>
>> I just talked to the Subaru importers, and they know all about this
>> problem, including having looked for ways of fixing it without
>> modifying the ECU software. They can offer no solution other than
>> driving with the fan or lights on all the time. Apparently it affects
>> all models since 2004, and is due to trying to get the best results
>> from carbon emission tests by keeping the generator off-load.
>> Gilbert.
>>
>> Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Bob Bailin wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>news:su3s94t6cbuqeipj80crm7qqlhl1tqpcr7@4ax.co m...
>>>>
>>>>>"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>news:d4fp949jv3rk9a7jobdi1tf07p6vbqd349@4ax. com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>news:nhoe94lgtp6gsuuol56at79bn3jgb0s7b1@4a x.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I frequently end up with a flat battery in my Forester05, despite the
>>>>>>>>>garage test rig reporting that the alternator and battery are in
>>>>>>>>>perfect condition.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>What am I doing wrong ? I am driving without the heater fan or
>>>>>>>>>sidelights on. If you run the battery low by parking with the lights
>>>>>>>>>on (say), there is no way the battery will ever recover unless you
>>>>>>>>>drive with the fan on. (I am not joking). Short journeys or long.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Charging lead-acid batteries is not rocket science, all you do is put
>>>>>>>>>14.6v across the terminals until the charge current shows it to be
>>>>>>>>>fully charged, then maintain a 14.2v trickle charge. Try plugging a
>>>>>>>>>voltmeter into your cigar lighter socket and watch what happens on
>>>>>>>>>your lovely Subaru, then compare it to any other make.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>You haven't said what the charging voltage reads with the engine
>>>>>>>>running and everything else off. Is it higher than battery voltage
>>>>>>>>with the engine off? Is it higher at 2000 rpms than at idle?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>All modern cars including Subarus can charge at max rate when the
>>>>>>>engine is idling. Increasing the revs makes no difference to any of
>>>>>>>them including mine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The charging voltage is 14.7v during the periods when it is delivering
>>>>>>>any charge to the battery.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Have you bothered to check the current draw when the engine is off
>>>>>>>>and all accessories, interior lights, etc. are off?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Disconnect the negative terminal and put an ammeter between the post
>>>>>>>>and the terminal. After waiting several seconds for any capacitors to
>>>>>>>>recharge, the current should be less than 0.05 amps. Anything higher,
>>>>>>>>start pulling fuses one by one until you discover the circuit with the
>>>>>>>>problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>There is absolutely no need to measure current flow, the charge rate
>>>>>>>of the battery is entirely down to the voltage across the terminals.
>>>>>>>14.2v for minimum trickle charge recommended for normal use when fully
>>>>>>>charged, 14.7v for a healthy charge rate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>The system is perfectly capable of doing this continuously, indeed it
>>>>>>>does exactly this with the lights on. It is only in conditions of
>>>>>>>minimum load that it fails to maintain even a trickle charge, despite
>>>>>>>the battery state being below 50%.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Gilbert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If this were any other make of car, I'd say you had a bad voltage
>>>>>>regulator on your alternator. Has your garage tried installing a
>>>>>>new or rebuilt alternator as a test? It's one of the benefits of
>>>>>>going to a dealer with these problems. Yes, I'm aware that
>>>>>>alternators on this car cost upwards of $450 list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You mentioned in another post that you think the ECU controls
>>>>>>the alternator output. I think you're mistaken. The voltage
>>>>>>regulator on most modern alternators consists of a small logic
>>>>>>board, not just static components. Hence the term "smart".
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If the swapped alternator behaves properly, and you're not
>>>>>>covered under warranty, you might be able to save $$$ by
>>>>>>replacing just the voltage regulator, only (!) $170 list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Bob
>>>>>
>>>>>The dealer told me the ECU was the voltage regulator. The car is still
>>>>>in warranty (just) and I am talking to the directors at the dealership
>>>>>to get them to accept the fault. It would be nice if it was the
>>>>>alternator, but my suspicions are aroused by the fact that it behaves
>>>>>perfectly with the fan or lights on.
>>>>>
>>>>>The other day I stopped at the end of a trip leaving the radio on for
>>>>>15 minutes before re-starting (ie: didn't go through the 'off' posn).
>>>>>The battery volts never went above 12v the whole way home. I hope it
>>>>>is repeatable.
>>>>>
>>>>>It would be really nice if someone else could do the same check as me,
>>>>>I guarantee you will be surprised by the fluctuations - who knows,
>>>>>maybe they are all like this ?
>>>>>
>>>>>Gilbert
>>>>
>>>>If you reported this problem before your warranty ran out, then you're
>>>>covered. Also, I believe your dealer is mistaken about the ECU
>>>>controlling the alternator. You wouldn't have a design with two
>>>>methods of voltage regulation, too complicated.
>>>>
>>>>Since the function of the voltage regulator is to control the alternator
>>>>output based on system load and yours doesn't respond the way it
>>>>should, then it should be a no-brainer to put in a working alternator
>>>>and compare it.
>>>>
>>>>Perhaps it's failing when the engine gets good and hot and your dealer
>>>>is testing it after it's cooled off.
>>>>
>>>>They could, if they wanted to, hook you up with a portable ODBC II
>>>>monitor and monitor the system voltage level while you have the
>>>>car. When they play it back, they'll see what you're talking about.
>>>>
>>>>But trying a replacement alternator costs them nothing but the time
>>>>to install it. If it's not the solution, they can put it back on the shelf.
>>>>
>>>>Bob
>>>
>>>Hi,
>>>I think the dealer techs ae incompetent. Time to try another dealer.
>
>I have yet to experience a dead battery (due to my own negilgence OR the
>'smart voltage regulatoer' issue you mention) in my '06 WRX. If the
>system was incapable of keeping the battery charged, shouldn;t I have
>had a dead battery several times by now?
>
>I'm in the US - are you? Could this be specific to another market?
>
>Carl

I am in UK, so quite possibly the US market is different. Do you have
charges based on CO2 emissions ? Are you using daytime driving lights,
or aircon frequently ?

When I talked to Subaru UK they were quite open about it, in fact I
only had to say I was monitoring the battery voltage and they went on
to describe exactly what I was seeing, and the things they had tried
while trying to fix it.

Gilbert