Various Topics on Subaru

.... .. ..c.. ..x..

Gilbert Smith wrote:
> Carl 1 Lucky Texan <alckytxn@swbell.not> wrote:
>
>
>>Gilbert Smith wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I just talked to the Subaru importers, and they know all about this
>>>problem, including having looked for ways of fixing it without
>>>modifying the ECU software. They can offer no solution other than
>>>driving with the fan or lights on all the time. Apparently it affects
>>>all models since 2004, and is due to trying to get the best results
>>>from carbon emission tests by keeping the generator off-load.
>>>Gilbert.
>>>
>>>Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Bob Bailin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>news:su3s94t6cbuqeipj80crm7qqlhl1tqpcr7@4ax.c om...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>news:d4fp949jv3rk9a7jobdi1tf07p6vbqd349@4ax .com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>"Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>news:nhoe94lgtp6gsuuol56at79bn3jgb0s7b1@4 ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>I frequently end up with a flat battery in my Forester05, despite the
>>>>>>>>>>garage test rig reporting that the alternator and battery are in
>>>>>>>>>>perfect condition.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>What am I doing wrong ? I am driving without the heater fan or
>>>>>>>>>>sidelights on. If you run the battery low by parking with the lights
>>>>>>>>>>on (say), there is no way the battery will ever recover unless you
>>>>>>>>>>drive with the fan on. (I am not joking). Short journeys or long.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>Charging lead-acid batteries is not rocket science, all you do is put
>>>>>>>>>>14.6v across the terminals until the charge current shows it to be
>>>>>>>>>>fully charged, then maintain a 14.2v trickle charge. Try plugging a
>>>>>>>>>>voltmeter into your cigar lighter socket and watch what happens on
>>>>>>>>>>your lovely Subaru, then compare it to any other make.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>You haven't said what the charging voltage reads with the engine
>>>>>>>>>running and everything else off. Is it higher than battery voltage
>>>>>>>>>with the engine off? Is it higher at 2000 rpms than at idle?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>All modern cars including Subarus can charge at max rate when the
>>>>>>>>engine is idling. Increasing the revs makes no difference to any of
>>>>>>>>them including mine.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The charging voltage is 14.7v during the periods when it is delivering
>>>>>>>>any charge to the battery.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Have you bothered to check the current draw when the engine is off
>>>>>>>>>and all accessories, interior lights, etc. are off?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Disconnect the negative terminal and put an ammeter between the post
>>>>>>>>>and the terminal. After waiting several seconds for any capacitors to
>>>>>>>>>recharge, the current should be less than 0.05 amps. Anything higher,
>>>>>>>>>start pulling fuses one by one until you discover the circuit with the
>>>>>>>>>problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>There is absolutely no need to measure current flow, the charge rate
>>>>>>>>of the battery is entirely down to the voltage across the terminals.
>>>>>>>>14.2v for minimum trickle charge recommended for normal use when fully
>>>>>>>>charged, 14.7v for a healthy charge rate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>The system is perfectly capable of doing this continuously, indeed it
>>>>>>>>does exactly this with the lights on. It is only in conditions of
>>>>>>>>minimum load that it fails to maintain even a trickle charge, despite
>>>>>>>>the battery state being below 50%.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Gilbert
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>Bob
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If this were any other make of car, I'd say you had a bad voltage
>>>>>>>regulator on your alternator. Has your garage tried installing a
>>>>>>>new or rebuilt alternator as a test? It's one of the benefits of
>>>>>>>going to a dealer with these problems. Yes, I'm aware that
>>>>>>>alternators on this car cost upwards of $450 list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>You mentioned in another post that you think the ECU controls
>>>>>>>the alternator output. I think you're mistaken. The voltage
>>>>>>>regulator on most modern alternators consists of a small logic
>>>>>>>board, not just static components. Hence the term "smart".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If the swapped alternator behaves properly, and you're not
>>>>>>>covered under warranty, you might be able to save $$$ by
>>>>>>>replacing just the voltage regulator, only (!) $170 list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The dealer told me the ECU was the voltage regulator. The car is still
>>>>>>in warranty (just) and I am talking to the directors at the dealership
>>>>>>to get them to accept the fault. It would be nice if it was the
>>>>>>alternator, but my suspicions are aroused by the fact that it behaves
>>>>>>perfectly with the fan or lights on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>The other day I stopped at the end of a trip leaving the radio on for
>>>>>>15 minutes before re-starting (ie: didn't go through the 'off' posn).
>>>>>>The battery volts never went above 12v the whole way home. I hope it
>>>>>>is repeatable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It would be really nice if someone else could do the same check as me,
>>>>>>I guarantee you will be surprised by the fluctuations - who knows,
>>>>>>maybe they are all like this ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Gilbert
>>>>>
>>>>>If you reported this problem before your warranty ran out, then you're
>>>>>covered. Also, I believe your dealer is mistaken about the ECU
>>>>>controlling the alternator. You wouldn't have a design with two
>>>>>methods of voltage regulation, too complicated.
>>>>>
>>>>>Since the function of the voltage regulator is to control the alternator
>>>>>output based on system load and yours doesn't respond the way it
>>>>>should, then it should be a no-brainer to put in a working alternator
>>>>>and compare it.
>>>>>
>>>>>Perhaps it's failing when the engine gets good and hot and your dealer
>>>>>is testing it after it's cooled off.
>>>>>
>>>>>They could, if they wanted to, hook you up with a portable ODBC II
>>>>>monitor and monitor the system voltage level while you have the
>>>>>car. When they play it back, they'll see what you're talking about.
>>>>>
>>>>>But trying a replacement alternator costs them nothing but the time
>>>>>to install it. If it's not the solution, they can put it back on the shelf.
>>>>>
>>>>>Bob
>>>>
>>>>Hi,
>>>>I think the dealer techs ae incompetent. Time to try another dealer.
>>
>>I have yet to experience a dead battery (due to my own negilgence OR the
>>'smart voltage regulatoer' issue you mention) in my '06 WRX. If the
>>system was incapable of keeping the battery charged, shouldn;t I have
>>had a dead battery several times by now?
>>
>>I'm in the US - are you? Could this be specific to another market?
>>
>>Carl
>
>
> I am in UK, so quite possibly the US market is different. Do you have
> charges based on CO2 emissions ? Are you using daytime driving lights,
> or aircon frequently ?
>
> When I talked to Subaru UK they were quite open about it, in fact I
> only had to say I was monitoring the battery voltage and they went on
> to describe exactly what I was seeing, and the things they had tried
> while trying to fix it.
>
> Gilbert

Interesting. Perhaps posting this at www.ulimatesubaru.org and
www.nasioc.com and asking other UK/EU owners for thier experiences in
this line would be helpful. WE do have DRLs but I know of no seperate
environmental controls/taxes involving CO2. Maybe someone else here has
more specific knowledge or another Brit will chime in.

Carl


--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)

.... ..a..

Carl 1 Lucky Texan wrote:
> Gilbert Smith wrote:
>
>> I just talked to the Subaru importers, and they know all about this
>> problem, including having looked for ways of fixing it without
>> modifying the ECU software. They can offer no solution other than
>> driving with the fan or lights on all the time. Apparently it affects
>> all models since 2004, and is due to trying to get the best results
>> from carbon emission tests by keeping the generator off-load.
>> Gilbert.
>>
>> Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> Bob Bailin wrote:
>>>
>>>> "Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:su3s94t6cbuqeipj80crm7qqlhl1tqpcr7@4ax.com...
>>>>
>>>>> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:d4fp949jv3rk9a7jobdi1tf07p6vbqd349@4ax.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:nhoe94lgtp6gsuuol56at79bn3jgb0s7b1@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I frequently end up with a flat battery in my Forester05,
>>>>>>>>> despite the
>>>>>>>>> garage test rig reporting that the alternator and battery are in
>>>>>>>>> perfect condition.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What am I doing wrong ? I am driving without the heater fan or
>>>>>>>>> sidelights on. If you run the battery low by parking with the
>>>>>>>>> lights
>>>>>>>>> on (say), there is no way the battery will ever recover unless you
>>>>>>>>> drive with the fan on. (I am not joking). Short journeys or long.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Charging lead-acid batteries is not rocket science, all you do
>>>>>>>>> is put
>>>>>>>>> 14.6v across the terminals until the charge current shows it to be
>>>>>>>>> fully charged, then maintain a 14.2v trickle charge. Try
>>>>>>>>> plugging a
>>>>>>>>> voltmeter into your cigar lighter socket and watch what happens on
>>>>>>>>> your lovely Subaru, then compare it to any other make.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You haven't said what the charging voltage reads with the engine
>>>>>>>> running and everything else off. Is it higher than battery voltage
>>>>>>>> with the engine off? Is it higher at 2000 rpms than at idle?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> All modern cars including Subarus can charge at max rate when the
>>>>>>> engine is idling. Increasing the revs makes no difference to any of
>>>>>>> them including mine.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The charging voltage is 14.7v during the periods when it is
>>>>>>> delivering
>>>>>>> any charge to the battery.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Have you bothered to check the current draw when the engine is off
>>>>>>>> and all accessories, interior lights, etc. are off?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Disconnect the negative terminal and put an ammeter between the
>>>>>>>> post
>>>>>>>> and the terminal. After waiting several seconds for any
>>>>>>>> capacitors to
>>>>>>>> recharge, the current should be less than 0.05 amps. Anything
>>>>>>>> higher,
>>>>>>>> start pulling fuses one by one until you discover the circuit
>>>>>>>> with the
>>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There is absolutely no need to measure current flow, the charge rate
>>>>>>> of the battery is entirely down to the voltage across the terminals.
>>>>>>> 14.2v for minimum trickle charge recommended for normal use when
>>>>>>> fully
>>>>>>> charged, 14.7v for a healthy charge rate.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The system is perfectly capable of doing this continuously,
>>>>>>> indeed it
>>>>>>> does exactly this with the lights on. It is only in conditions of
>>>>>>> minimum load that it fails to maintain even a trickle charge,
>>>>>>> despite
>>>>>>> the battery state being below 50%.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gilbert
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If this were any other make of car, I'd say you had a bad voltage
>>>>>> regulator on your alternator. Has your garage tried installing a
>>>>>> new or rebuilt alternator as a test? It's one of the benefits of
>>>>>> going to a dealer with these problems. Yes, I'm aware that
>>>>>> alternators on this car cost upwards of $450 list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You mentioned in another post that you think the ECU controls
>>>>>> the alternator output. I think you're mistaken. The voltage
>>>>>> regulator on most modern alternators consists of a small logic
>>>>>> board, not just static components. Hence the term "smart".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the swapped alternator behaves properly, and you're not
>>>>>> covered under warranty, you might be able to save $$$ by
>>>>>> replacing just the voltage regulator, only (!) $170 list.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>
>>>>> The dealer told me the ECU was the voltage regulator. The car is still
>>>>> in warranty (just) and I am talking to the directors at the dealership
>>>>> to get them to accept the fault. It would be nice if it was the
>>>>> alternator, but my suspicions are aroused by the fact that it behaves
>>>>> perfectly with the fan or lights on.
>>>>>
>>>>> The other day I stopped at the end of a trip leaving the radio on for
>>>>> 15 minutes before re-starting (ie: didn't go through the 'off' posn).
>>>>> The battery volts never went above 12v the whole way home. I hope it
>>>>> is repeatable.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be really nice if someone else could do the same check as me,
>>>>> I guarantee you will be surprised by the fluctuations - who knows,
>>>>> maybe they are all like this ?
>>>>>
>>>>> Gilbert
>>>>
>>>> If you reported this problem before your warranty ran out, then you're
>>>> covered. Also, I believe your dealer is mistaken about the ECU
>>>> controlling the alternator. You wouldn't have a design with two
>>>> methods of voltage regulation, too complicated.
>>>>
>>>> Since the function of the voltage regulator is to control the
>>>> alternator
>>>> output based on system load and yours doesn't respond the way it
>>>> should, then it should be a no-brainer to put in a working alternator
>>>> and compare it.
>>>>
>>>> Perhaps it's failing when the engine gets good and hot and your dealer
>>>> is testing it after it's cooled off.
>>>>
>>>> They could, if they wanted to, hook you up with a portable ODBC II
>>>> monitor and monitor the system voltage level while you have the
>>>> car. When they play it back, they'll see what you're talking about.
>>>>
>>>> But trying a replacement alternator costs them nothing but the time
>>>> to install it. If it's not the solution, they can put it back on the
>>>> shelf.
>>>>
>>>> Bob
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> I think the dealer techs ae incompetent. Time to try another dealer.
>
> I have yet to experience a dead battery (due to my own negilgence OR the
> 'smart voltage regulatoer' issue you mention) in my '06 WRX. If the
> system was incapable of keeping the battery charged, shouldn;t I have
> had a dead battery several times by now?
>
> I'm in the US - are you? Could this be specific to another market?
>
> Carl
>
>
Hmmmm,
Really? 3 Subaru cars in my family all later than '06 don't have that
problem. Driving with lights on? We have DRL. Fan on? most of time it's
on by default. Lemme see, typical alternator is 3 phase rull wave
rectified and it's output is controlled by field coil current supplied
by imbedded regulator. If yoy measure voltage going to F terminal of
alternator, you'll see whether it is charging or not and how hard it is
charging. As simple as that.

..lbe.. ..i..

Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote:

>Carl 1 Lucky Texan wrote:
>> Gilbert Smith wrote:
>>
>>> I just talked to the Subaru importers, and they know all about this
>>> problem, including having looked for ways of fixing it without
>>> modifying the ECU software. They can offer no solution other than
>>> driving with the fan or lights on all the time. Apparently it affects
>>> all models since 2004, and is due to trying to get the best results
>>> from carbon emission tests by keeping the generator off-load.
>>> Gilbert.
>>>
>>> Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Bob Bailin wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> "Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>> news:su3s94t6cbuqeipj80crm7qqlhl1tqpcr7@4ax.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:d4fp949jv3rk9a7jobdi1tf07p6vbqd349@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:nhoe94lgtp6gsuuol56at79bn3jgb0s7b1@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I frequently end up with a flat battery in my Forester05,
>>>>>>>>>> despite the
>>>>>>>>>> garage test rig reporting that the alternator and battery are in
>>>>>>>>>> perfect condition.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What am I doing wrong ? I am driving without the heater fan or
>>>>>>>>>> sidelights on. If you run the battery low by parking with the
>>>>>>>>>> lights
>>>>>>>>>> on (say), there is no way the battery will ever recover unless you
>>>>>>>>>> drive with the fan on. (I am not joking). Short journeys or long.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Charging lead-acid batteries is not rocket science, all you do
>>>>>>>>>> is put
>>>>>>>>>> 14.6v across the terminals until the charge current shows it to be
>>>>>>>>>> fully charged, then maintain a 14.2v trickle charge. Try
>>>>>>>>>> plugging a
>>>>>>>>>> voltmeter into your cigar lighter socket and watch what happens on
>>>>>>>>>> your lovely Subaru, then compare it to any other make.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You haven't said what the charging voltage reads with the engine
>>>>>>>>> running and everything else off. Is it higher than battery voltage
>>>>>>>>> with the engine off? Is it higher at 2000 rpms than at idle?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> All modern cars including Subarus can charge at max rate when the
>>>>>>>> engine is idling. Increasing the revs makes no difference to any of
>>>>>>>> them including mine.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The charging voltage is 14.7v during the periods when it is
>>>>>>>> delivering
>>>>>>>> any charge to the battery.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Have you bothered to check the current draw when the engine is off
>>>>>>>>> and all accessories, interior lights, etc. are off?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Disconnect the negative terminal and put an ammeter between the
>>>>>>>>> post
>>>>>>>>> and the terminal. After waiting several seconds for any
>>>>>>>>> capacitors to
>>>>>>>>> recharge, the current should be less than 0.05 amps. Anything
>>>>>>>>> higher,
>>>>>>>>> start pulling fuses one by one until you discover the circuit
>>>>>>>>> with the
>>>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There is absolutely no need to measure current flow, the charge rate
>>>>>>>> of the battery is entirely down to the voltage across the terminals.
>>>>>>>> 14.2v for minimum trickle charge recommended for normal use when
>>>>>>>> fully
>>>>>>>> charged, 14.7v for a healthy charge rate.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The system is perfectly capable of doing this continuously,
>>>>>>>> indeed it
>>>>>>>> does exactly this with the lights on. It is only in conditions of
>>>>>>>> minimum load that it fails to maintain even a trickle charge,
>>>>>>>> despite
>>>>>>>> the battery state being below 50%.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Gilbert
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If this were any other make of car, I'd say you had a bad voltage
>>>>>>> regulator on your alternator. Has your garage tried installing a
>>>>>>> new or rebuilt alternator as a test? It's one of the benefits of
>>>>>>> going to a dealer with these problems. Yes, I'm aware that
>>>>>>> alternators on this car cost upwards of $450 list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You mentioned in another post that you think the ECU controls
>>>>>>> the alternator output. I think you're mistaken. The voltage
>>>>>>> regulator on most modern alternators consists of a small logic
>>>>>>> board, not just static components. Hence the term "smart".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If the swapped alternator behaves properly, and you're not
>>>>>>> covered under warranty, you might be able to save $$$ by
>>>>>>> replacing just the voltage regulator, only (!) $170 list.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The dealer told me the ECU was the voltage regulator. The car is still
>>>>>> in warranty (just) and I am talking to the directors at the dealership
>>>>>> to get them to accept the fault. It would be nice if it was the
>>>>>> alternator, but my suspicions are aroused by the fact that it behaves
>>>>>> perfectly with the fan or lights on.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The other day I stopped at the end of a trip leaving the radio on for
>>>>>> 15 minutes before re-starting (ie: didn't go through the 'off' posn).
>>>>>> The battery volts never went above 12v the whole way home. I hope it
>>>>>> is repeatable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It would be really nice if someone else could do the same check as me,
>>>>>> I guarantee you will be surprised by the fluctuations - who knows,
>>>>>> maybe they are all like this ?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gilbert
>>>>>
>>>>> If you reported this problem before your warranty ran out, then you're
>>>>> covered. Also, I believe your dealer is mistaken about the ECU
>>>>> controlling the alternator. You wouldn't have a design with two
>>>>> methods of voltage regulation, too complicated.
>>>>>
>>>>> Since the function of the voltage regulator is to control the
>>>>> alternator
>>>>> output based on system load and yours doesn't respond the way it
>>>>> should, then it should be a no-brainer to put in a working alternator
>>>>> and compare it.
>>>>>
>>>>> Perhaps it's failing when the engine gets good and hot and your dealer
>>>>> is testing it after it's cooled off.
>>>>>
>>>>> They could, if they wanted to, hook you up with a portable ODBC II
>>>>> monitor and monitor the system voltage level while you have the
>>>>> car. When they play it back, they'll see what you're talking about.
>>>>>
>>>>> But trying a replacement alternator costs them nothing but the time
>>>>> to install it. If it's not the solution, they can put it back on the
>>>>> shelf.
>>>>>
>>>>> Bob
>>>>
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I think the dealer techs ae incompetent. Time to try another dealer.
>>
>> I have yet to experience a dead battery (due to my own negilgence OR the
>> 'smart voltage regulatoer' issue you mention) in my '06 WRX. If the
>> system was incapable of keeping the battery charged, shouldn;t I have
>> had a dead battery several times by now?
>>
>> I'm in the US - are you? Could this be specific to another market?
>>
>> Carl
>>
>>
>Hmmmm,
>Really? 3 Subaru cars in my family all later than '06 don't have that
>problem. Driving with lights on? We have DRL. Fan on? most of time it's
>on by default. Lemme see, typical alternator is 3 phase rull wave
>rectified and it's output is controlled by field coil current supplied
>by imbedded regulator. If yoy measure voltage going to F terminal of
>alternator, you'll see whether it is charging or not and how hard it is
>charging. As simple as that.

Sorry, the field current is definitely controlled by the ECU since 04.
Monitoring the field current is an indication of the current being
delivered by the alternator, yes, but not an indication of battery
charging current. The voltage across the battery terminals shows this.

I posted one reply at the top (sorry) - here it is again:

I just talked to the Subaru importers, and they know all about this
problem, including having looked for ways of fixing it without
modifying the ECU software. They can offer no solution other than
driving with the fan or lights on all the time. Apparently it affects
all models since 2004, and is due to trying to get the best results
from carbon emission tests by keeping the generator off-load.

Gilbert

.... ..urtrig..

Gilbert Smith wrote:

> Sorry, the field current is definitely controlled by the ECU since 04.
> Monitoring the field current is an indication of the current being
> delivered by the alternator, yes, but not an indication of battery
> charging current. The voltage across the battery terminals shows this.

Hi,

Something doesn't p*** the "sniff test" here. Even the inafamous old
positive earth Lucas systems weren't any more b***-ackward than that
idea... dunno how the rest of the world runs their domestic market
alternators, but I'd be hard pressed to think of one, domestic or
imported, we have in the US today that doesn't have an integral voltage
regulator. Now, I'd understand the ECU monitoring output voltage so it
has a base line for comparison when it receives its various signals from
this sensor and that, but using the ECU to do the job of the voltage
regulator makes zero sense to me at this moment. Maybe I'm missing
something important?

IF the alternator IS putting out adequate current and voltage, but
you're not getting what's required at the battery, WHERE is the loss?
That's the question I'd be asking myself if it were my car.

Rick

..lbe.. ..i..

Rick Courtright <rcourtright@iname.com> wrote:

>Gilbert Smith wrote:
>
>> Sorry, the field current is definitely controlled by the ECU since 04.
>> Monitoring the field current is an indication of the current being
>> delivered by the alternator, yes, but not an indication of battery
>> charging current. The voltage across the battery terminals shows this.
>
>Hi,
>
>Something doesn't p*** the "sniff test" here. Even the inafamous old
>positive earth Lucas systems weren't any more b***-ackward than that
>idea... dunno how the rest of the world runs their domestic market
>alternators, but I'd be hard pressed to think of one, domestic or
>imported, we have in the US today that doesn't have an integral voltage
>regulator. Now, I'd understand the ECU monitoring output voltage so it
>has a base line for comparison when it receives its various signals from
>this sensor and that, but using the ECU to do the job of the voltage
>regulator makes zero sense to me at this moment. Maybe I'm missing
>something important?
>
>IF the alternator IS putting out adequate current and voltage, but
>you're not getting what's required at the battery, WHERE is the loss?
>That's the question I'd be asking myself if it were my car.
>
>Rick

Subaru tell me the alternator is taken off-line a.s.a.p so that it
presents no load to the engine during the emissions test, thereby
getting a better score. They say there is no voltage regulator inside
the alternator because the ECU controls the field current.

They also tell me that turning on the blower to its lowest setting is
programmed to restore normal generator action. I already proved this
myself, and driving lights will do it also.

Don't forget this is an 05 car in pristine condition, and it p***es
the Subaru electronic test equipment run with flying colours.

Bottom line is if you have an 04 or later car, and rarely use the fan
or the lights, you end up with a flat battery - believe me, I know.

Gilbert.

..b ..il..

"Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:l1hbb4tn67fvj1ll0rfqv7plmhsne4s2kj@4ax.com...
> Rick Courtright <rcourtright@iname.com> wrote:
>
>>Gilbert Smith wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry, the field current is definitely controlled by the ECU since 04.
>>> Monitoring the field current is an indication of the current being
>>> delivered by the alternator, yes, but not an indication of battery
>>> charging current. The voltage across the battery terminals shows this.
>>
>>Hi,
>>
>>Something doesn't p*** the "sniff test" here. Even the inafamous old
>>positive earth Lucas systems weren't any more b***-ackward than that
>>idea... dunno how the rest of the world runs their domestic market
>>alternators, but I'd be hard pressed to think of one, domestic or
>>imported, we have in the US today that doesn't have an integral voltage
>>regulator. Now, I'd understand the ECU monitoring output voltage so it
>>has a base line for comparison when it receives its various signals from
>>this sensor and that, but using the ECU to do the job of the voltage
>>regulator makes zero sense to me at this moment. Maybe I'm missing
>>something important?
>>
>>IF the alternator IS putting out adequate current and voltage, but
>>you're not getting what's required at the battery, WHERE is the loss?
>>That's the question I'd be asking myself if it were my car.
>>
>>Rick
>
> Subaru tell me the alternator is taken off-line a.s.a.p so that it
> presents no load to the engine during the emissions test, thereby
> getting a better score. They say there is no voltage regulator inside
> the alternator because the ECU controls the field current.
>
> They also tell me that turning on the blower to its lowest setting is
> programmed to restore normal generator action. I already proved this
> myself, and driving lights will do it also.
>
> Don't forget this is an 05 car in pristine condition, and it p***es
> the Subaru electronic test equipment run with flying colours.
>
> Bottom line is if you have an 04 or later car, and rarely use the fan
> or the lights, you end up with a flat battery - believe me, I know.
>
> Gilbert.

Call up the Subaru parts catalog for your vehicle (at the dealer or
online) and under "Alternator" you'll see a reference for a
voltage regulator. So "they" are mistaken.

.... ..a..

Gilbert Smith wrote:
> Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote:
>
>> Carl 1 Lucky Texan wrote:
>>> Gilbert Smith wrote:
>>>
>>>> I just talked to the Subaru importers, and they know all about this
>>>> problem, including having looked for ways of fixing it without
>>>> modifying the ECU software. They can offer no solution other than
>>>> driving with the fan or lights on all the time. Apparently it affects
>>>> all models since 2004, and is due to trying to get the best results
>>>> from carbon emission tests by keeping the generator off-load.
>>>> Gilbert.
>>>>
>>>> Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Bob Bailin wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:su3s94t6cbuqeipj80crm7qqlhl1tqpcr7@4ax.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>> news:d4fp949jv3rk9a7jobdi1tf07p6vbqd349@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> "Bob Bailin" <72027.3605@compuserve.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> "Gilbert Smith" <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>>> news:nhoe94lgtp6gsuuol56at79bn3jgb0s7b1@4ax.com...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> I frequently end up with a flat battery in my Forester05,
>>>>>>>>>>> despite the
>>>>>>>>>>> garage test rig reporting that the alternator and battery are in
>>>>>>>>>>> perfect condition.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> What am I doing wrong ? I am driving without the heater fan or
>>>>>>>>>>> sidelights on. If you run the battery low by parking with the
>>>>>>>>>>> lights
>>>>>>>>>>> on (say), there is no way the battery will ever recover unless you
>>>>>>>>>>> drive with the fan on. (I am not joking). Short journeys or long.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Charging lead-acid batteries is not rocket science, all you do
>>>>>>>>>>> is put
>>>>>>>>>>> 14.6v across the terminals until the charge current shows it to be
>>>>>>>>>>> fully charged, then maintain a 14.2v trickle charge. Try
>>>>>>>>>>> plugging a
>>>>>>>>>>> voltmeter into your cigar lighter socket and watch what happens on
>>>>>>>>>>> your lovely Subaru, then compare it to any other make.
>>>>>>>>>> You haven't said what the charging voltage reads with the engine
>>>>>>>>>> running and everything else off. Is it higher than battery voltage
>>>>>>>>>> with the engine off? Is it higher at 2000 rpms than at idle?
>>>>>>>>> All modern cars including Subarus can charge at max rate when the
>>>>>>>>> engine is idling. Increasing the revs makes no difference to any of
>>>>>>>>> them including mine.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The charging voltage is 14.7v during the periods when it is
>>>>>>>>> delivering
>>>>>>>>> any charge to the battery.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Have you bothered to check the current draw when the engine is off
>>>>>>>>>> and all accessories, interior lights, etc. are off?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Disconnect the negative terminal and put an ammeter between the
>>>>>>>>>> post
>>>>>>>>>> and the terminal. After waiting several seconds for any
>>>>>>>>>> capacitors to
>>>>>>>>>> recharge, the current should be less than 0.05 amps. Anything
>>>>>>>>>> higher,
>>>>>>>>>> start pulling fuses one by one until you discover the circuit
>>>>>>>>>> with the
>>>>>>>>>> problem.
>>>>>>>>> There is absolutely no need to measure current flow, the charge rate
>>>>>>>>> of the battery is entirely down to the voltage across the terminals.
>>>>>>>>> 14.2v for minimum trickle charge recommended for normal use when
>>>>>>>>> fully
>>>>>>>>> charged, 14.7v for a healthy charge rate.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The system is perfectly capable of doing this continuously,
>>>>>>>>> indeed it
>>>>>>>>> does exactly this with the lights on. It is only in conditions of
>>>>>>>>> minimum load that it fails to maintain even a trickle charge,
>>>>>>>>> despite
>>>>>>>>> the battery state being below 50%.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Gilbert
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>>> If this were any other make of car, I'd say you had a bad voltage
>>>>>>>> regulator on your alternator. Has your garage tried installing a
>>>>>>>> new or rebuilt alternator as a test? It's one of the benefits of
>>>>>>>> going to a dealer with these problems. Yes, I'm aware that
>>>>>>>> alternators on this car cost upwards of $450 list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You mentioned in another post that you think the ECU controls
>>>>>>>> the alternator output. I think you're mistaken. The voltage
>>>>>>>> regulator on most modern alternators consists of a small logic
>>>>>>>> board, not just static components. Hence the term "smart".
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If the swapped alternator behaves properly, and you're not
>>>>>>>> covered under warranty, you might be able to save $$$ by
>>>>>>>> replacing just the voltage regulator, only (!) $170 list.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Bob
>>>>>>> The dealer told me the ECU was the voltage regulator. The car is still
>>>>>>> in warranty (just) and I am talking to the directors at the dealership
>>>>>>> to get them to accept the fault. It would be nice if it was the
>>>>>>> alternator, but my suspicions are aroused by the fact that it behaves
>>>>>>> perfectly with the fan or lights on.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The other day I stopped at the end of a trip leaving the radio on for
>>>>>>> 15 minutes before re-starting (ie: didn't go through the 'off' posn).
>>>>>>> The battery volts never went above 12v the whole way home. I hope it
>>>>>>> is repeatable.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It would be really nice if someone else could do the same check as me,
>>>>>>> I guarantee you will be surprised by the fluctuations - who knows,
>>>>>>> maybe they are all like this ?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gilbert
>>>>>> If you reported this problem before your warranty ran out, then you're
>>>>>> covered. Also, I believe your dealer is mistaken about the ECU
>>>>>> controlling the alternator. You wouldn't have a design with two
>>>>>> methods of voltage regulation, too complicated.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Since the function of the voltage regulator is to control the
>>>>>> alternator
>>>>>> output based on system load and yours doesn't respond the way it
>>>>>> should, then it should be a no-brainer to put in a working alternator
>>>>>> and compare it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Perhaps it's failing when the engine gets good and hot and your dealer
>>>>>> is testing it after it's cooled off.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> They could, if they wanted to, hook you up with a portable ODBC II
>>>>>> monitor and monitor the system voltage level while you have the
>>>>>> car. When they play it back, they'll see what you're talking about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But trying a replacement alternator costs them nothing but the time
>>>>>> to install it. If it's not the solution, they can put it back on the
>>>>>> shelf.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bob
>>>>> Hi,
>>>>> I think the dealer techs ae incompetent. Time to try another dealer.
>>> I have yet to experience a dead battery (due to my own negilgence OR the
>>> 'smart voltage regulatoer' issue you mention) in my '06 WRX. If the
>>> system was incapable of keeping the battery charged, shouldn;t I have
>>> had a dead battery several times by now?
>>>
>>> I'm in the US - are you? Could this be specific to another market?
>>>
>>> Carl
>>>
>>>
>> Hmmmm,
>> Really? 3 Subaru cars in my family all later than '06 don't have that
>> problem. Driving with lights on? We have DRL. Fan on? most of time it's
>> on by default. Lemme see, typical alternator is 3 phase rull wave
>> rectified and it's output is controlled by field coil current supplied
>> by imbedded regulator. If yoy measure voltage going to F terminal of
>> alternator, you'll see whether it is charging or not and how hard it is
>> charging. As simple as that.
>
> Sorry, the field current is definitely controlled by the ECU since 04.
> Monitoring the field current is an indication of the current being
> delivered by the alternator, yes, but not an indication of battery
> charging current. The voltage across the battery terminals shows this.
>
> I posted one reply at the top (sorry) - here it is again:
>
> I just talked to the Subaru importers, and they know all about this
> problem, including having looked for ways of fixing it without
> modifying the ECU software. They can offer no solution other than
> driving with the fan or lights on all the time. Apparently it affects
> all models since 2004, and is due to trying to get the best results
> from carbon emission tests by keeping the generator off-load.
>
> Gilbert
Hi,
You are full of it. You don't even know what you are talking about.
Amount of field current controls the output of alternator. It's closed
loop servo kinda circuit if you see this electro mechanical device as a
electrical simulation. Read your post, ---field current is an indication
of the current deliverd by the alternator---- What does that suppose to
mean? Do you know what field coil does? Do you know what stator windings
do? I think your Subie dealer is full of it too. I live in Foothills in
Western Canada. If charging system does not perform well we can even
start our cars in the morning with dead battery with slush formed
inside. Poential difference(voltage) makes the current flow. Ever looked
into dynamic parameters when alternator is under load and charging at
the same time. Battery voltage sensing line, F terminal, lternator
output terminal, temerature compensation status, etc. with proper
instrument.

.... ..a..

Rick Courtright wrote:
> Gilbert Smith wrote:
>
>> Sorry, the field current is definitely controlled by the ECU since 04.
>> Monitoring the field current is an indication of the current being
>> delivered by the alternator, yes, but not an indication of battery
>> charging current. The voltage across the battery terminals shows this.
>
> Hi,
>
> Something doesn't p*** the "sniff test" here. Even the inafamous old
> positive earth Lucas systems weren't any more b***-ackward than that
> idea... dunno how the rest of the world runs their domestic market
> alternators, but I'd be hard pressed to think of one, domestic or
> imported, we have in the US today that doesn't have an integral voltage
> regulator. Now, I'd understand the ECU monitoring output voltage so it
> has a base line for comparison when it receives its various signals from
> this sensor and that, but using the ECU to do the job of the voltage
> regulator makes zero sense to me at this moment. Maybe I'm missing
> something important?
>
> IF the alternator IS putting out adequate current and voltage, but
> you're not getting what's required at the battery, WHERE is the loss?
> That's the question I'd be asking myself if it were my car.
>
> Rick
Hi,
You mention Lucas? That POS! Their wanna be alternator which needed
polarization when alternator is replaced like old generator. What
wonderful design it was. I had to redo their regulator to correct that
BIG design fault. It took me one week end to figure that our for my
neighbor who lost charging current after replacing dead alternator.
Doesn't Lucas mean knight of darkness something like that?, LOL!

.... ..a..

Gilbert Smith wrote:
> Rick Courtright <rcourtright@iname.com> wrote:
>
>> Gilbert Smith wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry, the field current is definitely controlled by the ECU since 04.
>>> Monitoring the field current is an indication of the current being
>>> delivered by the alternator, yes, but not an indication of battery
>>> charging current. The voltage across the battery terminals shows this.
>> Hi,
>>
>> Something doesn't p*** the "sniff test" here. Even the inafamous old
>> positive earth Lucas systems weren't any more b***-ackward than that
>> idea... dunno how the rest of the world runs their domestic market
>> alternators, but I'd be hard pressed to think of one, domestic or
>> imported, we have in the US today that doesn't have an integral voltage
>> regulator. Now, I'd understand the ECU monitoring output voltage so it
>> has a base line for comparison when it receives its various signals from
>> this sensor and that, but using the ECU to do the job of the voltage
>> regulator makes zero sense to me at this moment. Maybe I'm missing
>> something important?
>>
>> IF the alternator IS putting out adequate current and voltage, but
>> you're not getting what's required at the battery, WHERE is the loss?
>> That's the question I'd be asking myself if it were my car.
>>
>> Rick
>
> Subaru tell me the alternator is taken off-line a.s.a.p so that it
> presents no load to the engine during the emissions test, thereby
> getting a better score. They say there is no voltage regulator inside
> the alternator because the ECU controls the field current.
>
> They also tell me that turning on the blower to its lowest setting is
> programmed to restore normal generator action. I already proved this
> myself, and driving lights will do it also.
>
> Don't forget this is an 05 car in pristine condition, and it p***es
> the Subaru electronic test equipment run with flying colours.
>
> Bottom line is if you have an 04 or later car, and rarely use the fan
> or the lights, you end up with a flat battery - believe me, I know.
>
> Gilbert.
Hmmm,
You and your deler both are full of it? What are you smoking?